I participated in a twitter pitch event today to find new agents to submit to and received a request to send a query from an agent who looks like a good match.
The problem is, I submitted a query for this project to her about nine months ago and received a form rejection.
I am not sure if I should submit again.
On the one hand, as I've learned from your blog, there are many reasons an agent may pass on a project, such as workload or having something too similar to it out for submission right then. It's possible the agent saw my pitch, thought it was cool, and wants to learn more about it, having forgotten seeing it last year.
On the other, it's possible she just didn't enjoy my thing the first time around, and resubmitting it to her will make me appear foolish, as though I don't pay attention to who I submit to (I have a spreadsheet and everything) and get me blacklisted by her, others at the agency, and will become a funny story she tells to other agents leading to further difficulties finding representation down the line.
should I:
1) resubmit my query et all again as though it's the first time
2) resubmit my query again and say "I'm glad you're interested in my project, I remember submitting to you last year"
3) some third thing
The answer is Door #3.
You say "I'm querying based on your interest from the Twitter Shark Infested Waters call for Queries on (date)."
You put that at the TOP of the query. (You might even have something in the subject line if so instructed by agent)
Then you have your query.
THEN at the bottom you write, "I want to be upfront that I queried previously with this project on (date.)"
If you have revised the query or the book since then, you add "the query/book has undergone revision since then."
If you have not, just don't say anything.
Do NOT write "and you rejected me"
You don't need to state the obvious.
You do NOT need to put the word rejection in your query.
If she passes this time, well, that's her loss. You've been upfront, and you've given her two bites at the apple.
As to this paragraph:
On the other, it's possible she just didn't enjoy my thing the first time around, and resubmitting it to her will make me appear foolish, as though I don't pay attention to who I submit to (I have a spreadsheet and everything) and get me blacklisted by her, others at the agency, and will become a funny story she tells to other agents leading to further difficulties finding representation down the line.
That's just not going to happen. People double query often enough that I don't even notice much any more, and it's not really crazy enough to merit making up a good story. The only people I blacklist are the ones who are incredibly rude after a series of interactions (ie you can't get blacklisted by just querying twice unless you actually TRY.)
And the funny stories I tell other agents are hardly ever about writers. They're always about other agents.
58 comments:
Thanks for the link to the agent story! That was the early-morning laugh I needed!
Good luck, OP!
And my whole world lies waiting behind door number 3
Yes, the phase of the moon is sometimes very important to querying. You never know until you cast a line in those waters.
Follow the sage and advise of our Queen and go for it, quickly, before the moon changes phase again.
Have a great weekend everyone.
Go for it, Opie! Janet tells us we should take agents at their word. When they say, "I love your writing," we should accept that at face value. When they say, "You suck--have you considered accounting?"--okay, a good agent might not be so blunt. But you get my point. If an agent says, "Query me!" even if you've queried her before, then do it. Be upfront and positive, as Janet says, but don't second-guess a gift. All the best to you! :)
Three agents walked into a bar...
What? OP, I get where you are coming from. Simply take a breath and do as the Queen directs. If the agent did blacklist you, there are plenty others chumming the waters.
I once had an agent reject my query, then change her mind a few weeks later and write back to ask for the full. She ended up offering me an R&R. And although I ultimately went in a different direction, we've enjoyed an occasional correspondence. So you never know, Opie. Take your chances as they come.
Thanks for the question. I had the same experience and wondered this myself.
Amy S, that's lovely. In all my learning and reading about publishing, I've never heard of an agent changing their mind like that! How nice to be the subject of such a rare opportunity, even if it didn't become your path. I think we all dream of an agent doing that, though! "I must have been mad, please forgive me - may I read your novel now after all?"
Barring that, a second chance like the one this agent has literally offered to OP looks good!
In other non-news, happy Friday to all, and to all a good day.
Congratulations on the pitching success, Opie! Hope you get good news.
Best of luck, Opie! Those pitch contests always look like a whole lot of fun.
Something along Janet's Door 3 answer would've been my guess, go me. They asked for it, send it.
So how long am I on the...I mean, what is the duration on your Blacklist?
No contest! We can sigh a breath of relief. A stay has been granted, but it will not be permanent. There will be an execution. No telling when. Tomorrow? Next week.
Not one among us is innocent. We all have it coming. Just as every life owes a death, every Reider owes chum of 100 carefully selected words to our sharkly queen.
Enjoy your day of less torment.
Of course, you might want to revise your query, especially if it's significantly different from your twitter pitch.
I just read through the Query Shark archives, so rewriting and polishing queries is very much on my mind. Not that I'm anywhere near the query stage.
Hank: Janet doesn't need a blacklist, she has Carkoon. :)
Elise: Janet's at Malice Domestic this weekend, so either a) she's not thinking about the contest, or b) she's gathering inspiration for the contest... 8-O
Wow, I'd look at this as opportunity no matter what. I love the clear concise directions from QOTKU too. That's what I need. Clear. Concise.
OT: (sort of, I was curious about this)
Hey Colin You were notably absent in yesterday's discussion. Hope all is well, and it seems so, since you're here today. BUT, inquiring minds wanna know... what are your top five reads for the genre you're writing in?
Colin Good. I hope she torments many and takes great joy in it. At least a week's stay...maybe. I am sending my WIP to an editor on Monday, like a professional one that comes highly recommended, and I want a couple more days for spit and polish.
That and John the Manuscript Frain has to murder himself twice more by Monday. We should, perhaps, let him have a week before his next execution. Not for me to say though.
I know I will die by scapegrace and the gaze of the abyss. It's unnerving.
Ms. Goldsmith,
You beat me to the "Three Agents Walk into a Bar" joke.
Pause, waiting for the "bit" to sink in.
Which is funny because they usually duck.
explanations to follow...
For those of you not querying yet, these query etiquette questions are so real! Even as a devoted Reider, I've had to scour the archives and ask questions because when you read you don't know some day they WILL be you.
Kregger: Took me a moment. lol They usually duck. Thanks for the laugh!
And Welcome Back, Colin!
Donna: The school I went to in England prided itself on the number of students it would send to Oxford and Cambridge Universities each year. I was not one of those students, but I was blessed to be friends with a couple of them in my year. They were the top of the class in their subjects, the cream of the school, intellectual giants among their peers. Then they went to Oxford and Cambridge, where they were given a rude awakening. I talked with one friend after his first term at Cambridge, and he talked about how he struggled so much, he was close to dropping out. He felt as if everyone else was so much smarter than him.
Among my non-writer friends, I'm very well read. There are only a few people I could name that are better read in fiction than I am. But among my writer friends, I'm like my Cambridge buddy. Nothing demoralizes me more than writers talking about books you MUST read if you're going to write any genre. Literally, nothing. A thousand rejections couldn't make me feel more like a fraud, unqualified to hold a pen.
So, my silence was deliberate. I have nothing to offer on the subject. You are all much more qualified to speak about books one should or should not read than I am. I'm just hoping the books I find time for are good enough to keep me from regurgitating the same-old same-old.
You did ask. :)
Colin ... You're not alone. I'm standing right there with you and your Cambridge buddy.
And I know that I'm not alone when I say: You, Sir, are absolutely qualified to "hold a pen."
A second chance is fabulous, Opie. Take Janet's advice with all the best wishers from the Reef.
I would add one caveat to the Queen's sage advice, and that is this:
In the past, a few agents have tweeted before pitch contests explaining that if this scenario occurs your no is still a no, please accept apologies.
So before you send again, do check the agents tweets from the pitch contest.
This happened to me a couple years ago. I thought about it, then thought, what the hell. I re-sent the query as though it was the first time. She remembered it. She rejected it again. Oh well. Life moves on, and I doubt I made some agent blacklist. But maybe I'm the reason for Megan V's caveat...
Twitter pitches are kind of new. People are still figuring out how things are done, what the etiquette is, etc. If an agent requests something they've already rejected, it's a new problem for many. And I'm sure it's not difficult to simply reject it again.
Great advice from Janet today, and as Amy S said, "...you never know, Opie. Take your chances..." Good luck!
As for the intimidating nature of the "must read" lists, I'd just like to say - Blueberries for Sal does not fall into that bucket. A lot of the text goes like this: "Kuplink, kuplank, kuplunk!" :-)
Colin and Melanie
I suspected your silence might have been on purpose given your take on it before, but then I thought, nah. Impossible! Colin, quiet??? :)
Seriously, though. I don't think this was a line in the sand. I think she believes that b/c we are writers, we are likely reading quality stuff. And if we aren't she's suggesting why we might, perhaps, maybe, sort of, kind of want to. ???
You are certainly entitled to your opinion about her gentle nudge to us all. There are reasons why certain books last for decades, or why we remember still, to this day. Reasons why they speak to the masses over and over. To me, it's like how you study music. Or Scripture. You read or listen, and are probably choosy about it, because you intend to enrich your existing knowledge, no?
I see her advice as the same thing.
Last, you said this: "You are all much more qualified to speak about books one should or should not read than I am."
Lordy, I have no idea why you say such things. !!! You have certainly proven your talent here, again and again.
Alrighty then!
Now I'll shut up - sorry QOTKU for dragging this OT!
Ha, Melanie I had a comment I was going to say - a sort of joke, and then forgot while I tried to chat Colin up.
Ooops.
Silly Colin You have been iendowed with a sharp wit and gift for words. This is why I reject the notion of canon. What inspires and moves you is your canon. Notice the variety we claimed in this group. And time is a finite thing so not all can read as much as others. Do not fret.
You are a wonderful writer, Colin regardless of what and how much you read. You have a wife, a day job, a ministry of sorts, and six kids. To me, you're super man to find time to read and write as much as you do. Of course, I did not attend either Oxford or Cambridge. I was, however, banned from the Christ Church library at Oxford (true story) so there's that.
Add my voice to the chorus of those singing this group's praises. We're all here because we're writers--and every single one of us is worthy of the name. I took yesterday's post to mean personal canon--as in, what inspires our writing. There's no right or wrong answer there. Hell, there's no right or wrong answer in writing at all because writing is art itself.
Colin--Have faith in your words, my friend! They inspire.
I thought yesterday that I'd really like to hear about the book or books that had the most impact on each of you as a person. Mine would be a different list. Canon might be important. What's most important is the person who writes the book. Colin and Melanie, no competition for you there.
OT - because it needs to be said.
Colin and Melanie: I didn't see yesterday's post as a 'you have to read these' kind of post. I saw it as a 'what books have had an impact on your personal life'. That was the list I gave.
Canon? I don't understand canon, to tell you the truth. I mean, yes, in fiction - like Star Wars and Star Trek - canon is important to keep the 'truth' of the series clear. And even that has changed along with the ownership of the franchises. Some of the arguments I've seen about the new movies going against canon - I won't get into that. Some people get downright hostile about it.
I suppose it's important to be well-read in your genre. I've read quite a bit of science fiction and fantasy, but growing up, I didn't have a lot of choice in what I read. There were school books and there were (very small) library books. Small towns are not known to have a lot of access to books. At least, 40 years ago, they didn't. (We won't get into today. That's a whole 'nother kettle of fish, which a shark may like, but which kind of gives me the heebies. But not the jeebies.)
So I read whatever was handy. Once I chose the genre I wanted to write in, I started reading more of it. The problem is, I found a fair amount of the science fiction 'classics' boring. I like adventure. I like imaginary peoples and situations. I like different cultures. I suppose I could have written contemporary or historical thrillers, rather than science fiction, but I liked the ability of science fiction to transcend the world today, and show people other worlds, other cultures, other peoples. Even more, I liked the ability to show people OUR culture, OUR world, OUR peoples, but in a different light, so as to get past biases and personal feelings.
And I think it's our personal reasons for writing our specific genre that creates our personal canon. I'm sure Archaeology and Language (Renfew) isn't going to be canon for many people at all, but it is for me.
My canon is full of adventure stories. Some science fiction. Some thrillers/mysteries. Some fantasy... but always adventure.
And now my off-topic post is about three times as long as my on-topic one. Sorry. Passionate, here.
Yep, door number three all the way. Who could fault being pleasant and honest?
Colin and Melanie? I feel the same way when I have checked out the compiled lists from a Google search. Working my way through one of those feels like a chore. For me, reading is a delight and I love to wander in a library, bookstore or (in yesterday's case) a friend's bookshelves.
Many of the books on the lists yesterday, I had never read, or, I must admit, even heard of. Some I had and didn't like. I think some books you have to encounter at the right time of your life. I read a lot of Dickens many years ago, but right now I think I would find them too wordy.
Just my two cents. Now back to real life. Be still my heart it is sunny today. (and yes, that is big news!)
I think Ms. Reid is right (as usual.) If the agent ASKED for a query, this is not a cold call. That means there is no reason to be anxious. You would only be putting a foot wrong if you did not send a requested query. You just absolutely MUST make it clear you are not cold pitching in your e-mail so you get that advantage. You can't assume the agent remembers what happened some time ago. As Ms. Reid said, put it in the subject line of your e-mail, thus, "Query you requested on twitter."
I have an intuitive suspicion you will get a request for a full this time also.
I sympathize with you worrying about the blacklist. I have a recurring nightmare of walking into a bar where a bunch of aents are laughing hysterically about some idjit author who got blacklisted without querying at all. I sit at the bar wondering how they could blacklist someone if they don't even know who he is. A voice whispers, "That's just how it is in the publishing biz." I order a screwdriver, but before the bar tender can pour my drink they say whom it is they are laughing at. They start bellowing my name and howling with glee. The bar tender gives me a complimentary piece of burnt toast with my drink. The piece of toast has my picture on it. It's a symbol. I wake up, my black heart pounding. It's a tough biz.
The good news is, that is the most pleasant dream I have about writing. The others are far worse.
Colin
I didn't go to Oxford or Cambridge either, obviously.
But I did go to Harvard.
I was in Boston for a conference and had an afternoon off so I walked over to Harvard as a busman's holiday. I spent over an hour walking around the place, but the buildings were so dreary I didn't go in any of them.
It hasn't helped my writing.
Just went back to yesterdays comments and saw we had a newbie.
Welcome to Cordia Pearson, hearty wave! The water's fine here, dip your toes in and stay awhile.
Colin, the books I listed are my personal "canon." With the possible exception of GWTW, I don't think they'd necessarily end up on a list of the very best historical fiction. "Very best" is subjective and makes for great can(n)on fodder.
OP, what great advice from Janet. It's wonderful that this door is still open. Good luck!
Or she had an intern sorting the queries saying, "Only send me YA about dragons, I'm in a mood for dragons this week."
Or an editor was hot and bothered about chick lit prison fiction and she was searching for that.
Or on that day, you'd sent in the umptieth urban fantasy vampire story and she said oh hell no . . . .
Or maybe your Twit-pitch was better than your query.
Whatever reason, this time it resonated. Go for it!
Terri
Years ago (when I had time and freedom for a writing group), we had a joke about "ritual apology." The teacher brought it to our attention because it also happened in her writing group.
Before sharing his/her work, each person would say something like, This is just a draft," or "This isn't finished." (Hah! Like it's ever finished!)
I loved what I heard, thought others' work was great. They liked mine too, but I still made my ritual apology. And so did they.
It's really tough to keep spirits up sometimes as a writer. (I've always wondered if Hemingway, Faulkner, King, and others wrote because they were drinkers, or drank because they were writers). Anyway, I appreciate that we're good to each other here, and I honor Colin and Melanie for sharing honest feelings.
I'm hoping to participated in one of the upcoming Twitter pitches and I was wondering the same thing. Thanks, OP and Janet!
Colin, don't be fooled by the imposter syndrome (it's actually a real thing). I get it all the time, here and especially with my real job. It just means you're high-achieving :) I also did not add my list yesterday because I didn't want to put into cyberspace what I like. Let me assure you they are no classics.
EM - I had forgotten it was Friday (and so possible 100th Contest Day) until you mentioned it. Then, I breathed a big ol sigh.
Lennon,
I, too, suffer from imposter syndrome and I feel it most keenly when I post comments here and in the three times I joined the flash fiction contests. I was always sure that I will sound all wrong since English is not my first language. I've had to delete countless posts for fear that someone will point out the grammatical errors and nonsensical comments. So far, the Reef has been nothing but amazing.
Colin,
Remember when I called you one of the Rockstars of the Reef? It's your awesome writing, dude :)
Colin mentioned Janet Reid was at Malice Domestic. I had never heard of Malice Domestic before, and now I see it in print for the second time this week.
The first time it was listed on the front page of the Advance Reader’s Edition of Sara Paretsky’s “Fallout.” That front page is titled “Marketing Campaign” and contains eighteen marketing bullet points. First on the list is “National Online Advertising, including Facebook.”
Farther down the list at number 11 is “Feature at Malice Domestic, Thrillerfest, and Bouchercon Conferences.” I checked out the Malice Domestic website and Sara Paretsky is not listed in any presentation for this year. She has been honored and presented there in prior years.
Malice Domestic is a major event. I was surprised at the number of writers who are presenting or speaking on panels. Because of so many concurrent sessions, an attendee could only hear a fraction of the speakers.
.
For what it’s worth, I received my copy of the A.R.E. as part of bullet point number 14 “Deep Distribution of Advance Reader’s Edition.” I guess they assume recipients will mention the book on places like this one. Which I guess I have. I'm so easily manipulated.
Okay, y'all are just so nice, you bring out my Southern accent... ;)
Let me clarify something. I don't take issue with Janet posting what she posted yesterday, nor do I take issue with any of the comments yesterday. Heck, I even understand the intention behind the whole "canon" thing. I've wandered around enough agent blogs to know that agents get a lot of dross in their inboxes. Much of the dross comes from people who think, "Well, if J.K. Rowling can do it, so can I!" and spend a few weeks whipping off 100K words of derivative nonsense that sends shivers up the spine of anyone who has read even half a dozen decent novels.
To counter this, agents (and published writers, too) encourage people who want to write not to try publishing the first draft of the first thing that comes into their heads. Multiple drafts. Beta readers. And know the category you're writing.
"How do I know the category?" the shocked newbie asks.
"Read books, numbskull!" the patient agent responds.
"But I do read books! See, I just finished 50 SHADES OF GREY--and that's a big book!"
"But you sent me a Western."
"So? Books are books."
And so we get canon lists, recommended books to read in a particular genre if you plan to write that genre.
That's all good and reasonable. Except those lists become Canon Law. Standards by which one is judged. And that's where I start to have issues. Even if such judging is not intended, it's hard not to feel judged when everyone's throwing canon lists around, and you've only read maybe 10% of the books on those lists, and yet you're trying to write a novel.
So, just to clarify. This is on me, not you. This is my struggle, and no-one here is guilty of doing wrong. Please make lists and suggest books. Just don't think badly of me if I attempt to write stuff even if I haven't got to all the books on your list yet. :)
PS: MORT is my current favorite of the Discworld series. Just thought I'd throw that in for my fellow Pratchett fans. ;)
Cecilia: Even if there were grammatical errors to correct, there are rules about correcting commenter's typos. No-one would dare, lest they risk the wrath of QOTKU. :)
A quick add from me... I wasn't in the least bit upset by Janet's post yesterday. And the lists were terrific, interesting and fun to read. My self-deprecating comment earlier today aligning myself with the feelings Colin expressed was in regard to my dreadfully and embarrassingly poor education.
Cecilia, Your writing here has always been articulate and lovely. Your name is lovely, too.
Oh, Melanie, you're a sweetheart. Thank you.
Reality check.
But first Colin) as always you are eloquent in your rationale and you should've been a lawyer.
Now, back to the reality check.
Why anyone here would sell themselves short in the brains department beats the hell outta me. But. I used to do this when I was in IT. I used to say all the time until I got a clue I wasn't helping myself one iota;"I'm not very technical."
I quit saying it, and b/c we were always going through mgmt changes, eventually no one remembered it, and I began to realize I WAS technical. What a dingbat I was.
But sort of in line with this, one of my favorite quotes of all time from my dear husband. "Just because you have a license, doesn't mean you can drive."
My LAST little snippet here coz I hear water splashing nearby.
Whatever helps you or gives confidence about writing is what's most important.
OP, congratulations on the second chance! I love it that Janet even gives the wording on how to phrase your response. Good luck!
This is for anyone reading along who thinks they aren't "literary" enough or "knowledgeable" enough to be called a writer because they haven't read "canon" extensively. To which I say, PFFFFT. Of course you're a writer, and likely a damn good one if you hang out here.
My favourite book of ALL TIME, the one I would read over and over again, the one I would have read to my kids if I still had a copy, is a silly children's book. No, I don't write in that genre. It had an enormous impact on me, on my concept of books as entertainment, on my view of language and words as something to play with.
I'm not sure I even remember the correct title. The Crazy Mixed Up Story? The Funny Mixed Up Story? It's about a boy who sneaks out of his house to eavesdrop on the bears [OMG, BEARS] in the forest, and then they discover him and he runs back home where his mother listens skeptically to his story and gives him a bath and sends him to bed. What makes the book special is that there are blank lines where a couple dozen nouns should be. There was a separate page in the book with all the missing words and you cut them out, put them in an envelope, and picked one when you got to a blank. So every time you read it, the story was (hilariously) different. My favourite substitution was for the last line (not verbatim): "His mother didn't believe him. If you don't believe him, he says to tell you you're a [bathmat]." My sisters and I laughed ourselves silly over that book, fought over taking turns picking words, every time our mom read it to us. Which was a LOT.
That ridiculous, non-serious, non-literary, no-one-else-even-remembers-it book is part of MY canon. Along with thousands upon thousands of genre fiction novels I couldn't even begin to list. Not to mention movies and TV shows and cartoons.
I know, I'm horribly off-topic and should have said all this yesterday. I was busy.
EDIT TO ADD: OMG OMG OMG. I just googled it, trying to verify the title [The Funny Mixed Up Story], and it's for sale at Amazon. A used copy is now winging it's way to me! I am over the moon with joy!! OMG, I need to go text my sisters.
Cecilia - I am amazed that English is not your first language. It IS mine, and of course I have a glaring typo in my comment!
kdjames, I will have to check that out. Sometimes I replace words in books (like, 'chickens' for 'puppies' in 101 Dalmations) and my kids just lose it laughing. And, isn't it the best feeling, rediscovering treasures like that from your childhood?!
Cecilia, you know what I think when I see typos or even unusual sentence structure? I assume it's either auto-correct having a field day or that someone is commenting from their tiny little phone screen, something I'd never be able to do, or that someone is simply in a hurry. I have never once thought, geez, that person can't even do words right.
Don't be so hard on yourself.
Lennon, my sisters and I just spent a good half hour texting our favourite lines back and forth to each other, from memory. It was awesome. :)
kd: I can think of only one thing better than owning a book like that: being the author of a book like that. How awesome to know your work is still giving that much joy. :)
kd james -
Your story made me smile! I had a similar experience prowling the aisles of Powell's bookstore. I stumbled across two books of historical paper dolls, the same ones I had played with when I was a kid shipped out to my Grandma Toni's house in Las Vegas for the summer by my single mom. I thought I would die.
Colin-
I couldn't agree more! What better than to leave a reader with a lasting memory.
Thanks, Gypmar!
Colin, truer words were never spoken. Er, written.
Comforting to know that when Janet yells at me for being off topic (after she JUST warned us), at least I'll be in good company . . . dragging you all down with me . . .
Mi HerminitaCecelia Ortiz Luna:
Currently I speak Floridian. It is not my first language either. One of my previous ones was Arizonian. Neither of those are really English. It is the brain behind language that creates great writing.
That you delete comments to get your point across better means that you have care with what you wish to say. That is what makes you a better writer. The ability to consider the words you are writing. The devil is in the details and to consider even your comments means only that your writing means something to you.
Cecilia said:
I've had to delete countless posts for fear that someone will point out the grammatical errors and nonsensical comments.
Don't ever worry about that.
People are not allowed to comment on the spelling or grammar of the commenters. Mine is fair game (and thanks to all of you who help me keep this as typo free as possible) but NOT in the comments section. I've always thought those kinds of comments were snide at best, and blatantly hostile more often.
I appreciate people taking care with what they say, but don't worry about that kind of attack here.
Also, I'm at Malice, and guess what we were discussing? Yup. The canon.
Love you guys.
Cecilia(and other Reiders)-feel free to reach out if ever you need someone to chat about imposter syndrome! (click on my name here and you'll find my info quick enough)
As always, thank you for your help, Janet. I've taken your advice and will let you know how it shakes out.
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