I recently got feedback from a well-known, award-winning author in my genre about the first two chapters of my MS. The author was very positive and enthusiastic, while also giving me great notes on what I needed to improve.
Sad woodland creature that I am, once my initial euphoria moderated itself, I began to wonder whether I could include this in a query. My guess is that for a read-through of two chapters, and not even the final version, the answer is "probably not." But I also hold out hope that the author might be willing to read the entire thing.
Should I mention it in a query as it stands now, or if the author does end up reading the whole MS? How would I refer to it ("So-and-so has read it and said I'm the bee's knees*")? Should I ask for the author's permission?
* they didn't actually say i was the bee's knees but it was clearly implied
Well, I'm sure you are the bee's knees but I don't really care if anyone else thinks so. The only opinion I care about is my own.
You're right to hesitate to include this in a query particularly since the Well Known, Award Winning Author only read a partial.
And you did not mention the circumstances under which this reading occurred.
I'm sorry to dash water on your bee wings, but if it was in conjunction with a writing contest, or a writing conference, chances are the WK,AW,A did not point out the flaws.
I'm very careful at writing conferences to be helpful rather than critical. When I'm assessing manuscripts in the safety of my writer-free Lair, no such compunction exists.
However.
The value of this is that clearly you can write, and WK, AW,A gave you some validation of that. That's not nothin' in this cold cruel world. That it's not going to be useful in your query doesn't mean it's not useful to you.
The only exception to this is if WK, AW, A is one of my clients. Then you'd lead with that in the query, cause I think my clients are pretty astute readers.
50 comments:
This is one of those instances where it's nice to have a web presence. You can quote your WKAWA there - even in the header or your bio, if you want to make sure it stays visible, but keep it out of the query.
Janet is the wasp's nipples.
I don't think I would even mention anyone else's thoughts on my work unless it was a referral from someone of significance to the agent (e.g., one of his/her clients). As Janet says, in the end all that matters is the novel and whether the agent likes it enough to read more. Even if Jeff Somers loves my Dino Porn, that doesn't mean Janet will want to read it. But if Jeff tells Janet and me, "Man, that Smith guy writes some of the most AWESOME Dino Porn I've ever read! You ought to look at his work," I'll remind Janet of that, for sure.
Not that I write Dino Porn. Or that Jeff Somers reads Dino Porn. :)
Diane: Your knowledge of apocritan anatomy is astounding. :)
Next week's sub-head
"Janet is the wasps nipples"
Thank you DLM for starting my day with a chortle.
OP- best thing about this kind of feedback is it gets you moving forward. Even if it is no direct value to your query, it's valuable to you.
More great query advice. Congratulations to OP for getting such positive comments from a WK, AAA. That should go a long way in helping to get the whole manuscript in good shape.
I was especially intrigued by Janet's comment that she is careful to be helpful rather than critical at writing conferences. That was the impression I got from a conference I went to a couple of years ago, but wondered if it was my imagination. But this should be different at a workshop, shouldn't it? Is there any way to tell which conferences/workshops are going to offer up the kind of tough criticism a manuscript might need? Is the trend always to be constructive? Does it depend on the individual author/editor/agent?
I love coming to this blog first thing in the morning. OMG, Diane!
Opie, what a wonderful affirmation. Hang onto it. Keep a file of affirmations. On those days when you sit at the keyboard and wonder... wth are you doing; read that file.
Aahhhh, my little green baize card tables. I thought y'all might recognize that, it is NOT my own invention but the late, great Douglas Adams via his character Murray Bost Henson.
http://www.azquotes.com/picture-quotes/quote-this-man-is-the-bee-s-knees-arthur-he-is-the-wasp-s-nipples-he-is-i-would-go-so-far-douglas-adams-40-98-67.jpg
https://books.google.com/books?id=bt0PEsYjj5IC&pg=PA215&lpg=PA215&dq=douglas+adams+wasp%27s+nipples&source=bl&ots=8VqSvnl6xP&sig=j_o5C2b20_Xf7vei3FCUn6b1IKE&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiUvPrYvoTOAhVBkx4KHdBHB94Q6AEIRTAK#v=onepage&q=douglas%20adams%20wasp's%20nipples&f=false
Opie, bottle your euphoria and label "Break in an Emergency".
Definitions of emergency:
- umpteenth rejection
- muse has fled
- last in a contest
- empty chocolate cupboard
- dog ate your pages
Diane's links:
http://www.azquotes.com/picture-quotes/quote-this-man-is-the-bee-s-knees-arthur-he-is-the-wasp-s-nipples-he-is-i-would-go-so-far-douglas-adams-40-98-67.jpg
https://books.google.com/books?id=bt0PEsYjj5IC&pg=PA215&lpg=PA215&dq=douglas+adams+wasp%27s+nipples&source=bl&ots=8VqSvnl6xP&sig=j_o5C2b20_Xf7vei3FCUn6b1IKE&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiUvPrYvoTOAhVBkx4KHdBHB94Q6AEIRTAK#v=onepage&q=douglas%20adams%20wasp's%20nipples&f=false
Congrats, OP - your book must be something! That's exciting.
As a follow up to Theresa's -Janet, I do love how you handle delicate writers' egos, and you do a stunning job at walking that critical/encouraging line here in the blog.
But I've considered going to a conference to have someone look at my query/ pages, and my goal would be to figure out the flaws (hopefully in a constructive way), more than what I did right. I would feel disappointed if I found out later that someone had seen those flaws and not mentioned them? Am I being naive about conferences and their purpose??
This is likely not a big deal to anyone but the writer - unless, as others and QOTKU have pointed out - this feedback came directly from an author she reps - or if the writer sends a query to WK,AW,A's agent.
It's always nice to hear positive things as you're plugging away, it keeps hope alive.
Colin, I'm sure 'publishability' is something all of us on the wrong side of published author status worry over. I do.
But you are only nonpunishable when you've tried every single avenue, agent and publisher. That's a never-ending list so really we shouldn't be worrying about it.
It's finding the right agent or publisher in our lifetime that's the concern!
Okay, it's far too late here to be posting. That should be "but you are only nonpublishable" in my post above. *sigh*
Uh-huh, yeah, Freudian slip there, AJ. I hear what you're saying. Until I find the right agent and publisher, I'm punishable. I should be kicked down the road and to Carkoon and back for not be published.
There's possibly some truth to that, given how long I've waited to get even this far! :)
Goodness, this place… it’s just incredible. If you’re new around here or if you lurk often, I have to tell you, this place is the most welcoming and loving place on the web. Don’t be afraid to dive right in. The Reiders here are the salt and light of the writing world, and they also happen to be incredible humans. J
Thank you everyone for the prayers yesterday! Kara is up and moving around (thank goodness) though she still feels “icky” in her words. At least she feels strong enough to go into work now that the fever has mostly died out.
As to the Opie – AJ hit the nail on the head. There are some things that help your career in writing, and there are some things that just help you stay sane. This is the latter. At my writing desk, I took the time to print nice words people said about my writing and highlight/pin them to the wall. On the good days I barely notice them hanging there. But on the bad days, those little words, no matter how trite or silly or contrived or fabricated they seemed before, they keep me moving and believing.
Post those words on your wall and then get to work on becoming the next well-known, award-winning author.
Definitely save this author's contact information so WHEN your book is published, you can ask for a cover blurb. Congrats!
I don't really have anything other to add than my congratulations to OP. That's wonderful to get such helpful and positive feedback!
Also, I'm nominating Colin's "When I fail, it's not because I can't write well, it's because I didn't, and I can do better" for sub-header.
There's a nifty TED talk out there about creative types, and the speaker mentions that the people who do the most good are the people who recognize their failure without extending it to themselves.
One of the examples is an engineer who designed a CT scanning machine specifically for kids. He was proud of his accomplishment, but when he went to see it in use at a hospital, every child that went into the machine was sobbing or under anesthesia because they were so frightened.
Instead of feeling like he was a terrible designer who frightened children, the engineer recognized it as a fixable problem and came up with a solution. He worked with the hospital to paint the entire room like an ocean, with cute animal pirates and the CT machine as the main ship. Children have to 'walk the plank' to get into the room and the nurses pretend to be crewmates. The next time the engineer went to see the machine, a young girl had just finished and asked her mom if they could come back next week for another scan.
Long story short: creative confidence matters.
Congrats OP on the affirmation.
I have almost written a similar question to QOTKU within the last few days. In a paid critique an editor at a large publishing house perfect for my ms gave me a helpful and positive critique on my query and first chapter. She added (in my words): get it submitted because the market is good right now for this work. Only because it was a publisher who might be interested in taking on the ms did I think it might be query-worthy. As you guys have said, that was enough to put my behind in a chair every day, and I'm just about polished and submission ready. Because the story is about an issue some agents might doubt a market for, I thought it might be significant that an editor sees a market. And, yes, even though I know our queen would not typically sign a YA book, I'll query her, just because I have to.
Bethany Elizabeth,
I agree about Colin's comment. Just because we may fail to do something perfect the first time does not mean we're failures ourselves.
I love the story about the CT scanner. Every "failure" should be considered a problem to be solved rather than a reason to give up altogether.
Affirmation is a great boost. It might give you enough of a boost in mileage to get to the end of the race. It will not win that race for you though.
The best affirmation is an invitation to be introduced to said writer's agent. If it didn't go that far you still have work to do but you can do it with a higher outlook because of that affirmation.
Query onward.
Congrats OP... I have a similar situation. A WK, AWA is a personal friend, in real life 3-D. She knows my writing (3 nonfiction books). I'm jumping genre - into commercial fiction, and she's read pages. She's offered to blurb future galleys (at least I "HOPE" there are galleys in my future). I mentioned this offer of a blurb in one query... then felt awkward and wrong about doing it, and revised my query with that little bit of info removed. The take-away is: I'm trying to focus on showing agents my ms is good, rather than telling them they should like it because WK, AWA likes it. Onward!
OP—It's always a boost when someone tells you that you can write. Let that boost fuel your writing and help you over the next fence.
@Brian Glad to see you back at the reef. Thoughts and prayers go out to you and your wife.
I didn't know wasps had nipples.
But then again at my age I can't 'remammary' a thing.
I was going to say Janet was the bee's butt but boobs are better.
Colin: This resonated with me. I received similar feedback and now know to include this when I query that particular agent.
We should embrace the good things, and hold them close. Recognize our achievements, to shield against the bad.
I was reminded this week that it is all fleeting. This post, by an author who should be read by *everyone* shed some light on some of the realities.
As my brother David says, "When God closes a door, He opens a window...but it's the hallways in between that are a bitch."
Colin
What you said absolutely resonates with me. I've been fortunate to find the most amazing critique partners a writer could hope for. They're kind when it's warranted, but ruthless when necessary. They've helped improve my work, and thus improved my confidence in that work.
But the publishabilty question resonates the most. I got word in early July that my manuscript was selected as a semi-finalist in a fairly well-known contest/fellowship for first novels (The winner will be announced in September). This was surprising to me, not because I doubt my skills (I don't), but because there have been a lot of rejections from agents, including some partials. The news provided some much needed validation.
But still I'm trying to stay grounded and not get too terribly excited. The reason is that, while a contest and its prize money would be nice, my goal is to have a career writing novels, and I'd need to be published to have that. It occurs to me that the contest judges are free to look at the work with eyes untainted by market concerns. I'm thinking that they aren't looking so much at "publishability", but at artistic merit (I could be wrong, but it's a strong hunch).
So I'm painfully aware that even if I were fortunate enough to win this thing, it doesn't solve the problem of publishabilty, if such a problem actually exists for me.
And that's the thing: since I'm not on the business side of writing, it's a mystery to me what makes a novel publishable or not. I'm a lousy judge of whether this ms is something the current or near-future market would embrace. And I've seen lots of books on store shelves that I would have thought unpublishable. I've started novel number two while I send number one out (and even some research for number three). Though, I'm pretty sure I'll have the same publishability question about the next one.
I've discovered that tolerance of ambiguity and uncertainty is a valuable thing if one can cultivate it. Some days my tolerance is higher than others. Some days a glass of wine is a fine thing.
The hornet's hairpiece?
Colin
I’d read anything you got published. Heck, I even read your comments here. I’d write my thoughts on publishability, but you’d accuse me of plagiarism (except I haven’t gone the short story route yet).
BlancheDuBois
I share your anxieties. I read my WIP and say it’s good but wonder if it’s good enough someone will publish it (they should). I don’t even kid myself about it being artistic.
Encouragement can come from anywhere. I don’t trust my friends’ feedback any longer, but objective praise to me indicates being another step closer to reaching THE goal.
I don’t know any famous authors I’d dare ask to read my manuscript, but I had one remember me earlier this month, and that was exciting enough for the time being.
I met her two years ago this month at a conference. She encouraged me to read Shakespeare’s sonnets for the rhythm. I sent her this link to an article about Shakespeare expert Russ McDonald for the video speech in it. (It’s a really good presentation on three aspects of Shakespeare’s writing - worth watching - hint)
My Page
Even though it’s been two years, she remembered (a) meeting me, (b) the conference (c) that we sat at the same table for lunch and (d) another person in our conversation. It was enough to energize me for a week or two.
I soak up whatever positives I can.
Sorry OP, that you can't brag about in the query. BUT, it should be something to pull out and admire next time you hit a set-back.
Maybe you can trade it in for chocolates?
Opie: Congrats!
DMR: Did you really just say that Janet is non-existent? 8^O
Colin: It resonates. I was so insecure in those questions for years that I couldn't even make myself query. I've gotten past that and quit worrying about it. I'm just going to write the best I can, and work to get it out there. Ultimately it's not only about how good the writing is, but getting it in front of the right people at the right time. That's something I don't have any real control over, so I don't worry about it. I'll just do what I can and enjoy the ride. Obviously I hope it works, but either way I'm going to write and work on selling it.
It took a LOT of years to get to this state. I hope everyone else can get there a lot quicker!
Finally, are the rest of you having to prove more frequently that you are not a robot? Or is it just me? The massive beard confused some immigration officers (I had no such thing five years ago when my passport photo was taken); maybe the internet is easily confused by beards...
Colin, I've just read your comment (btw, thank you for all your support! But that's not why I'm conmmenting now - but thank you!)
I'm commenting to say, it doesn't stop. Meaning, writers will always need to hear something good to keep them going - even after being published. Those positive snippets, no matter where they come from, which occasionally trickle our way do work like magic. Just know, it doesn't end. Doubt is ever present. But doubt can be squashed in the split second it takes for someone to acknowledge you're work is good.
Just so ya'll know. (yep I know how I spelled it)
Donna's keeping her Rebel status intact, spelling y'all all kinds of wrong. And then bragging about it!
I had something on topic, but now that I cracked myself up I've completely forgotten. I'm blaming Donna the Distractor!
It'll come to me. As soon as I walk down into the basement and forgot what I went there for, I'll remember what I was gonna type here. Please stand by... (cue Jeopardy! music)
At Surrey one year, I had a bestselling author read the beginning of my novel in a blue pencil session. He thought it was terrific and he was looking forward to seeing it in print someday. I thought, "What a nice guy. He probably says that to all the authors."
Then I read his blog, where he was talking about how in those sessions, he had to talk to so many beginning writers, and he had to tell almost all of them that their work wasn't ready for prime time, that they needed to work on it more.
And I thought, "What a nice guy. He actually LIKED my pages!"
No, I would never put that in a query letter. But it was nice to see I was on the right track. And for those who want real help at conferences, you can find authors who will give honest critiques.
By the way, someone reading your work doesn't have to be critical to be helpful. Janet says she's helpful - that is, she helps you figure out if something isn't working. She's not critical, in that she's not going to point out all your faults. (This is what I saw happening at the query letter workshop she gave at Surrey some years ago - helpful, not critical, and I have a pretty darn good query letter now.)
Let's try this again.
First off to the OP. Congratulations.
Janet's right, you can't put it in a query, but you can lift some portion of the glowing words and make a sign to put over your desk to remind yourself when you doubt. "Nope, I'm not a crappy writer. It says right there I'm the bees knees."
Several years ago, a friend sent me a plaque that said, "Trust me, Julie, I have everything under control. Jesus" Then there was a scripture about not worrying and putting my faith in Christ.
I re-did it on my computer, added some flower embellishments and fancy scrollwork, then printed it off on parchment paper with the prisoner's name of all of our students. We sent them out with the next bible lesson. I think at the time we had over 2,000. Anyway, everyone needs affirmation that it's going to be ok.
We're told we have to develop a thick skin to be a writer, and we do. We'll be rejected by agents, then publishers, then by readers. It wears on the soul until we realize wonder if that's why ghosts are ethereal bits of mist. Life wore the spirits out.
When I went to Surrey last year, I nearly backed out of the blue pencil with the historical author. I decided to go through with it because I wanted to pick his brain about writing historicals and hoped he might give me some constructive feedback. I didn't expect high praise, but he loved the piece I showed him and showed me how to work an unfamiliar phrase in seamlessly. It certainly helps me get through the times when I look at what I'm writing and think it's crap. Then I tell myself, "Well, it may be, but the sanguine creek scene wasn't and you can make this scene sing also. Keep writing."
He treated me like a big girl and showed me how to improve some things and I'm very thankful.
Anyway, hold on to the high points.
I would only mention it in the query if it was someone that say Janet respected highly recommended it. Unless it's her favorite bartender, Steve. He has dubious taste in literature.
Blanche,
Obviously, some agents and publishers don't even know what's publishable or they wouldn't have told Zane Grey he was unpublishable and to stop writing.
Congratulations on the contest, that's a tremendous validation.
was especially intrigued by Janet's comment that she is careful to be helpful rather than critical at writing conferences. That was the impression I got from a conference I went to a couple of years ago, but wondered if it was my imagination. But this should be different at a workshop, shouldn't it? Is there any way to tell which conferences/workshops are going to offer up the kind of tough criticism a manuscript might need? Is the trend always to be constructive? Does it depend on the individual author/editor/agent?
Having done several conference critiques, I've found them helpful. One in particular was incredibly useful on a craft level. But I think there's a diminishing rate of return the better you get, craft-wise. There's a point where your first ten or twenty pages or so shine but you need help with pacing or something that can't really be covered in ten minutes. But the critiques are a great way to meet agents and editors.
I did a novel revision retreat once, and it was amazing. For me, at least, learning to revise a full length manuscript has been a lot harder than a short story because there are so many factors to balance. The retreat offered a lot of practical advice on how to work pacing and also how to tackle different elements in a logical way.
Side note, the novel retreat was also interesting because everyone was put into groups of four, and you read everyone else's manuscripts before the retreat started. So we spent the weekend critiquing everyone's else work, section-by-section, in addition to figuring out what we needed to change in our own manuscripts.
BJ,
"What a nice guy. He probably says that to all the authors."
That's what I thought after I talked to C.C. Humphreys. I said that later that night to the Books and Writers crew and several of them said, nope. They got pretty severe sessions.
I'm sure some might go easy, but not all did.
Hee. Just call me Donna(Instigator)eve.
I belonged to a writer's group for a couple of years (met once a month). The group was very complimentary about what I submitted each time. But when one of the group asked to read the completed novel, she ripped it to shreds. I know reading the whole novel is different from reading bits and pieces; however, I could have used the razor comments while I was writing. I also came to wonder just how sincere these people were, decided they were not helpful, and quit. (Sulk. Sulk.)
One of the best critiques I ever had came from an author/ illustrator at an SCBWI conference. She is now an award winning graohic novelist, so I think everything she said is even more helpful and brilliant than I did at the time. I remeber being a little bummed out that I did not get to have a session with an editor/art director/agent, but after it was over, I realized what I got out of it was much more valuable than getting 10 minutes of editor/art director/agent potential recognition like they would remember me 40 minutes from there.
The way these critiques were set up at that conference, was that the exalted critiquers got your pages/illustrations in advance, and I don't know if this is how the rest of the critiquers did it, but mine looked at what I sent, went to my website(s) and included written notes which she gave to me to reflect on later. The really interesting thing to me, was that she looked at my cartoon blog, as well as my illustrations, and said that there was potential in the catoons for future development. Well, that's mighty interesting to me now, since 5 years down the road, that is where my graphic novel springs from.
So, while this is not something I would put in a query (I knew I would make this relevant to the OP, and not just all about me) it is something that has hovers above me as I work and sometimes feel hopeless, and can look back on to help propel me forward.
Pandas onward!
Julie W. – I’d like more exposition on “printed it . . . with the prisoner's name of all of our students. We sent them out with the next bible lesson.”
The Sleepy One - Since I don’t have a critique group, you’ve got me thinking about a novel retreat. I assume the novel should be in the I-think-it’s-ready-to-go shape. How long do these retreats last? Is this like a one-week immersion? Do they furnish Diet Dr Pepper or must I bring my own?
Julie and B.J. Muntain – I guess I’m not the only one to discount praise by thinking the praisegiver must say that to everyone or that they are using a low threshold of quality.
Number1textgirl
That's why I value my critique partners so much. We're all mature enough in the journey that we're very honest in our critiques. I'll post excerpts on Books and Writers and most of the people there are pretty good also, but you learn sometimes the comments are more about style and tend to ignore those.
The time for those tough comments from critique partners is while you're still revising, not after you're published.
I'll probably hire an editor I met at Surrey to go over at least part of Rain Crow when I get it done because I appreciated the feedback she gave me in a blue pencil and she "got" the story.
Joseph, I used to have a prison ministry. There were five ladies who volunteered to send out bible studies, write letters, send inspirational things, books, bibles etc. At one point we had over 5,000 students, so we stayed pretty busy. The average was 2-3,000.
We didn't have any funding from anyone, so it was just what we raised ourselves to keep it going and periodically someone would hear about us and send us a check. It was always at a time when I was, "Well, we've got 200 lessons to send out this week and no money for postage. Time to start thanking God for his ministry."
Have faith in things unseen. Just as we writers must do. We write a scene with the faith it will be part of a larger whole. We write a book in faith it will find a home. If it doesn't, it simply wasn't time for that book, but we are better writers for having written it. We have to write boldly with faith in ourselves and the dream.
I have to disagree. I recall, some years past, where a certain author rebuffed agents who didn't sign an unknown. A book that famous author loved. Well . . . that author got a lot of offers after that . . . so there is some evidence it can work.
But it does depend on who that someone is.
I nominate Julie Weathers' "We have to write boldly with faith in ourselves and the dream" for blog subheader.
[Can I do that? I'm new in town . . . be gentle with me.]
On a separate note, I had the impulse to erase my browser history after I searched "Do wasps have nipples?" I don't want the NSA thinking I'm too freaky.
I did the right thing . . . didn't I?
Blanche: Anyone can nominate blog subheaders, but our nominations don't really help. They'll probably bring them to Janet's attention, but I've noticed that most nominations don't make it to the WiR. And that's perfectly fine.
As for erasing your browser history - couldn't tell you if it's the right thing to do, except it does keep your computer cleaner. (In the files. If it did any physical cleaning, I'd be deleting history all over my house.)
So do they?
Joseph Snoe, the novel revision retreat I went to was a two day event (12 PM Friday to 10 AM Sunday), and included all meals, dessert, and coffee/tea, and a selection of soft drinks. It was structured into segments that kicked off with a lecture and then gave us time to work on our novel. So if the lecture was on character development, we'd then use the tools we learned to review of our novel's character development.
I'm sure there are other retreats out there and they'll have their own agenda and focus.
Blanche,
Considering I have researched oubliettes, murder holes, medieval warfare, medieval law (women could challenge men to a judicial trial by arms whereupon the man was in a hole waist deep and they fought), umpteen kinds of demons and witches, Elizabet Bathory (shudder), as well as various odd rabbit trails to do with cowgirls and the Civil War, I think you're safe.
Also, welcome. I thought I'd seen you around before. My memory....
Just dropping by to say thanks for those who responded to my comment about being publishable. I'm glad I'm not alone. Yes--let's just keep writing and doing the best we can with what we've got.
Joseph: I really wasn't fishing for compliments, but thank you. That means a lot. :)
Number1texgirl- they were just jealous. I mean, you're the number 1 Texas girl.
Seriously, glad you got out. Something was definitely not right.
Blanche- unless you're going to run for public office (and at this point, I think we all should), I'm all in favor of keeping the NSA guessing. I just searched for "wasp nipples" to join the fray. There was a very strange link to a porn site (Bee Wasp Stinging Tit Nipple Videos - Free Porn Videos - Heavy...) which I did NOT follow. Both google and- I trust- the NSA can vouch for that.
Clearing browser cache won;t matter unless they hack into your computer... but they are undoubtedly hard at work collecting search terms on the net, anyway.
ObRobotNote: After asking if anyone else had seen an incerase in the number of times you have to prove you are not a robot, I did not have to do so on that post. I bet I do with this one.
roadkills-r-us
Mountains I can identify, but they all look like storefronts to me.
I got feedback from a name author once, he wrote, 'It's Stephen with a ph not v'.
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