tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17040756.post4303372693227921267..comments2024-03-18T09:09:59.625-04:00Comments on Janet Reid, Literary Agent: Ghost writing novelsJanet Reidhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00615380335938685231noreply@blogger.comBlogger46125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17040756.post-41048378974076020812017-07-20T23:34:06.545-04:002017-07-20T23:34:06.545-04:00Susan, I didn't mean to imply you were negatin...Susan, I didn't mean to imply you were negating or undermining anyone's work. I know you, we're friends, and I know you'd never do that. I'm not questioning your motives or methods or anything else. [Note to others: A bunch of us talked about this over on FB and the discussion was more far ranging and, as Susan implied, you all are missing some context/detail here.] <br /><br />I'm just [still] skeptical that the practice is as prevalent as you think it is. But I'm viewing this from the perspective of the RWA bubble (which is a pretty darn big bubble, albeit still a bubble) and your perspective is different. It's an interesting situation/trend and I'm glad you asked the question. Great discussion.<br /><br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17040756.post-62477329621051962182017-07-20T22:40:26.998-04:002017-07-20T22:40:26.998-04:00KD: I may have been overzealous in saying the majo...<b>KD:</b> I may have been overzealous in saying the majority, and for that I'm sorry. I don't mean to negate anyone's writing or hard work. I know there are extremely talented <i>and</i> prolific writers in these genres, so I certainly don't mean to undermine them, their work, or their careers. Not my intention at all.<br /><br />But I do stand by the assertion that there is a growing trend, particularly in certain genres of self-publishing for writers to employ ghostwriters. I mention Romance because that's the genre I've ghostwritten for and it's what I'm seeing the most on the freelance boards because it is a hot genre. I'm also seeing more and more authors on the writing boards/self-publishing FB groups talking about parsing out their work to other writers in order to grow their catalog quickly, especially as there's an ideology that frequent releases (we're talking monthly) and thus a large backlist increases a self-pubbed author's chance for success (particularly financially). <br /><br />I don't know what level of involvement these ghostwriters have--if they create the full book based on a premise or if they just go through and polish already-written drafts. Maybe the latter doesn't even really constitute a ghostwriter. I can't say--I can only speak from my own experience and what I do.<br /><br />But I will say as a final thought that my feelings on the matter are more complicated than I've expressed here because of my beliefs on what it means to create and be a writer. It's why when I ghostwrite, they're more like rewrites. My clients always present the first draft or a detailed skeleton that I can then fill in with details, rework some scenes, or polish, but it's still very much their story, their voice, and their book. As I said above, it would be an entirely different scenario if someone asked me to ghostwrite with only a nugget of an idea. I don't know how I would feel about that. Which is why I'm asking questions about venturing down this rabbit hole. I do love it, I'm having fun, and it's income, but there are caveats based on my own principles that warrant exploration.<br /><br />But you're right--it may not be a majority, but based on what I've seen as far as freelancer requests and what I've read in these groups, I do think that it's a growing trend in self-publishing, specifically. What it means for the industry, I have no idea.Susanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05332570278984058081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17040756.post-74334890587564552752017-07-20T20:46:23.850-04:002017-07-20T20:46:23.850-04:00Susan, a quibble, if I may? You said, "I'...Susan, a quibble, if I may? You said, "I'm led to believe that the majority of self-published authors in certain genres are using ghostwriters." You then later say, in a comment, that the genre you're ghosting is romance, which I'm taking to mean the "certain genre" you refer to in the quote is also romance.<br /><br />That's an astonishing statement and it's just . . . not true. Not in my experience. Your experience may be vastly different and I'm not questioning that. But whoever is leading you to believe this is perhaps ill-informed. <br /><br />I've been a member of RWA for well over a decade (I've lost count), know hundreds of romance writers (trad and self-pubbed), and am on several industry email loops. If a "majority" of them were using ghost writers, I'd know it. I would have heard about it. Everyone would have heard about it. I know dozens who use pseudonyms, some openly and some secretly. But I don't know of even ONE romance writer who uses a ghost writer. Granted, there might be a few. But certainly not a quantity that would constitute a majority. The writers I know are FAR more likely to employ an assistant to help with everything BUT the writing (I know several who do) than hire a ghost writer. <br /><br />I wouldn't even bother to address this except that you're looking for work as a ghost writer and it does you no favours to believe there is a huge number of self-pubbed romance writers out there looking for ghost writers. I wish you all the best in finding this kind of work and don't want to be a wet blanket on your hope, but it's just not as prevalent as you've been led to believe. <br /><br />Then again, maybe you'll start a new trend and this time next year we'll all be using ghosts. Stranger things have happened.<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17040756.post-43973289725714386942017-07-20T19:12:58.405-04:002017-07-20T19:12:58.405-04:00Susan, why don't you take a look at the Harleq...Susan, why don't you take a look at the Harlequin romance website? It seems like this would be right up your alley as a good way to break into traditional publishing by doing what you already have experience doing, writing for guidelines. When you go to the site, scroll down until you find Authors, Write for Harlequin. Click there and you'll find all the info you need to write romances following guidelines, which is similar to ghostwriting, in a way. Please check it out, you may find it's just what you're looking for to bridge the gap from self to traditional publishing. <br />I thought of Harlequin as soon as I began reading today's blog & comments. Good Luck to you.<br /><br />To address the bulk of other comments: I wrote Star Trek novels back in the day. It was for me, easy, quick and fun to bang them out while my original novels droned on, dragging their feet. My agent suggested I try genre fiction for this reason. So, I can equate this to what Susan is discussing. Of course, writing genre fiction following guidelines is not ghostwriting, you get your name on the book and credit for the story. It is in effect your novel you have developed. However, I do see there are certain comparisons that can be made.<br /> So, I would recommend to anyone writing to look into genre fiction writing for series. Star Wars, Star Trek, or any of the movies or television shows that are serialized, Harlequin, etc.<br />Good luck to all. <br /><br /> Boris Ryanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12473574875147827613noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17040756.post-29788397542350583452017-07-20T17:25:57.512-04:002017-07-20T17:25:57.512-04:00Colin! Too funny! No, not a literal one. After al...<b> Colin! </b> Too funny! No, not a literal one. After all of those novels, she'd gotten tired of still having to submit, hearing that no, sales weren't what we wanted to see on that last book so you need to switch gears here, all those things that go with the pressure of being a money making author. Most of the pressure is off now and she's happy. And like I said, she can always write her own still and submit again. She also writes serials and publishes them on her site. So it's all worked really well for her.nightsmusichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05984119792540771870noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17040756.post-14651154600531089782017-07-20T17:07:11.129-04:002017-07-20T17:07:11.129-04:00nightsmusic: a good friend of mine... has moved on...<b>nightsmusic</b>: <i>a good friend of mine... has moved on and is now enjoying being a ghost writer.</i> Uhhh... is she now <i>literally</i> a <i>ghost</i> writer??! 8-OColin Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03292997431935215499noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17040756.post-83290523204009913562017-07-20T16:51:42.896-04:002017-07-20T16:51:42.896-04:00I'm very late to the party today, but I will s...I'm very late to the party today, but I will say, a good friend of mine who has 40+ traditionally published novels to her credit has moved on and is now enjoying being a ghost writer. She was recommended to her first client from her agent and has now gone on to have several repeat clients. She is not acknowledged on the cover or anywhere in the novel, she does not tell anyone at all who she has written for (and no, I don't know either nor do I ask,) her work comes from other industry insiders or her agent, she gets paid for finished work and is loving the freedom of not having to deal with printing, publishing, book signings, hoping the series she's working on continues to sell, or any of the other downsides to being a published author.She has a steadier income now than when she was publishing under her own name though of course, that can always change, and she's really happy with her current freedom. While I miss her own work, she's happier than she's been in a long time. And if she tires of the ghostwriting, she can always go back to submitting her own work which still has to be done regardless of how many novels you've already published.<br /><br />So, that's the other side for what it's worth...nightsmusichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05984119792540771870noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17040756.post-65586078814283025652017-07-20T15:04:58.029-04:002017-07-20T15:04:58.029-04:00Susan, Thanks for sharing your process. You are tr...<b>Susan,</b> Thanks for sharing your process. You are truly awe inspiring, and doing that much writing is definitely going to pay off for you as you continue on your arduous journey with your own stories. (I used the word arduous because I wanted to de-torturify it for you!)RosannaMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06399732751877180737noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17040756.post-6648727995779471322017-07-20T14:49:42.314-04:002017-07-20T14:49:42.314-04:00Exactly what Caroline said. I can't fathom it ...Exactly what Caroline said. I can't fathom it either, but people do what they need to do to get their name through the door, I suppose. Me? I couldn't do it. Feels like helping someone . . . cheat.<br /><br />Edit: Wish there was an editing option here.Ardenwolfehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14053900506482830292noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17040756.post-2851753980706981892017-07-20T14:48:08.478-04:002017-07-20T14:48:08.478-04:00Great question and comments today. Lots to learn h...Great question and comments today. Lots to learn here, always. So cool to see a breakthrough happen before our eyes!Claire Bobrowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15666082441972111293noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17040756.post-75242648990233024982017-07-20T14:47:39.087-04:002017-07-20T14:47:39.087-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Ardenwolfehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14053900506482830292noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17040756.post-89571006159137271252017-07-20T14:42:42.881-04:002017-07-20T14:42:42.881-04:00This really resonated with me this morning because...This really resonated with me this morning because I'm currently ghostwriting an autobiography/memoir. It's not fiction, but much like Susan's process, the subject tells me the stories she wants included, and it's up to me to shape them into something compelling to read, and to fill out the details.<br /><br />Not sure where this is going to take me yet, but it's certainly fun. Although, I'm not banging out a book in 3 weeks, that's for sure! The process is proving much slower than I had anticipated which means I'm not working on my own books nearly enough. But I've come to terms with that. This year is the ghostwriting year. Next year will be time for me to write my own stuff.Kate Larkindalehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06202347563426692610noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17040756.post-6579567840611075902017-07-20T14:40:21.035-04:002017-07-20T14:40:21.035-04:00Way over my limit now...
Colin: Yes, thanks! I co...Way over my limit now...<br /><br /><b>Colin:</b> Yes, thanks! I completely get that it's not for everyone. Completely get that and understand why. Writing is hard enough for our own work as it is, and everyone questioning it has completely valid points. But it's a good fit for me. It just took a long, long while (and this discussion here) to see that. <br /><br />I feel like I need to give you all a hug. This is like a breakthrough moment for me. =PSusanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05332570278984058081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17040756.post-32706911959605139592017-07-20T14:34:01.418-04:002017-07-20T14:34:01.418-04:00I'm hitting my three comment limit here, but A...I'm hitting my three comment limit here, but <b>Amy</b>:<br /><br /><i>"Different authors have different levels of involvement in projects involving ghostwriters. Some authors may have done much work on a project that also had a ghostwriter."</i><br /><br />This is also why I have no problem with ghostwriting and no attachment to the story--it's not my story. The way I work with my clients is they bring me the ideas and the skeleton or first draft and I fill in the pieces, rewrite it, and bring it to life. So they are still heavily involved in the writing process--it's still their book.<br /><br />If I were using my ideas, characters, etc, it would be a different ballgame--I'd either just publish myself or charge much, much more. But the thought of creating something outside of what I want to create (my coming-of-age books) just doesn't excite me as much. Susanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05332570278984058081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17040756.post-13895598801698870762017-07-20T14:32:42.246-04:002017-07-20T14:32:42.246-04:00Susan: It's not for everyone, but if you love ...<b>Susan</b>: It's not for everyone, but if you love it, and this setup works for you, go for it! Is it really that different from someone who has a copywriting job, or some other paid writing gig, as their day job, and writes their own stuff on the side? And if it helps spur on your own writing, then that's even more wonderful. :DColin Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03292997431935215499noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17040756.post-1734061782854860462017-07-20T14:24:31.148-04:002017-07-20T14:24:31.148-04:00Thanks everyone! You're all bringing up some g...Thanks everyone! You're all bringing up some great points and discussion, which I appreciate.<br /><br /><b>Rosanna</b>: Yep, the last book I just finished in June was done in two weeks BUT the first draft was already written. I went through and rewrote it all, fixing some scenes, adding in layers and themes, adding more to the characterization, and rewriting/writing new dialogue and better transitions, etc. But the crux of the story was already there. In a sense, I leveled it up. So I act as a ghostwriter in that regard. For my friend who started it all, we wrote a romance/thriller series. We would do something similar where she would either give me a very rough first draft or the skeleton of the story with the outline of scenes, and then I could go in and rewrite it however I saw fit. So it's much more than "here's the premise, write the story." I need to know where my clients want me to go with it and then I fill in the pieces. That's what makes the writing easy and so much fun for me. With my own work, I take years to write because I'm discovering it all for myself (and I have the added pressure of my own style and name attached to it). <br /><br />Although I did write the first draft of my own new WIP in three weeks. That was amazing and has never happened to me before. But now I'm spending months and months agonizing over it. Like I said. Torture. ;)<br /><br /><b>BJ:</b> I don't know of any places where trad publishers are advertising. It makes sense that Janet says it's about connections. But I'm certainly going to look. The more I think about this, the more I realize how much I love it and it feels right, especially since it's far from what I <i>want</i> to write on my own. There's something about bringing someone else's ideas to life that excites me... especially if I can make some money and then bring my own vision to life at the same time with my own work.<br /><br />Really appreciate this discussion. I feel so motivated now.Susanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05332570278984058081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17040756.post-66168382204416358672017-07-20T13:28:13.963-04:002017-07-20T13:28:13.963-04:00Colin, EMEither way, I do not want to encounter th...<b>Colin, EM</b>Either way, I do not want to encounter the otherworldly creatures that are to be found on Carkoon. Which is why I only asked about the gift contents, not the contest results. That would have been way too come-uppity for me.<br /><br />So feel free to ask the question, <b>Colin,</b> I'll share the water and chocolates that <b>Kathy</b> sends.RosannaMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06399732751877180737noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17040756.post-45826826636946690552017-07-20T12:45:57.807-04:002017-07-20T12:45:57.807-04:00Okay. Comment number four. But I'm keeping the...Okay. Comment number four. But I'm keeping them short, right?<br /><br />One thing about not having your name on the cover is, if the book doesn't do well (due to the original author's publishing/marketing choices, not your fault at all, of course), it won't affect your ability to get traditionally published. You'll still be a 'debut author', despite having several books already published.<br /><br />Okay. Shutting up now. BJ Muntainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12977414826388000094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17040756.post-3361105001091590622017-07-20T12:39:34.250-04:002017-07-20T12:39:34.250-04:00Susan: Are there places where traditional publishe...<b>Susan</b>: Are there places where traditional publishers advertise for ghostwriters? Or is it all 'who you know'? Maybe publishers' trade magazines?<br /><br />Maybe look at ghostwriting agencies. There seem to be a few, and many of them claim traditional publishing contracts. I can't vouch for any, though.<br />Perhaps a membership in RWA, and letting people there know that you're willing and able to ghostwrite romance? Maybe they have a database for members looking for writing work?<br /><br />I've also heard of people writing romance under a pseudonym for extra cash, while pursuing publication in other genres. Of course, this is hearsay, so I can't guarantee anything.<br />BJ Muntainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12977414826388000094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17040756.post-69072100447208663282017-07-20T12:15:05.654-04:002017-07-20T12:15:05.654-04:00Another thought about ghostwriting. (Behaving myse...Another thought about ghostwriting. (Behaving myself by keeping the last comment to <100 words.) :)<br /><br />I was thinking along the same lines as something Joseph said. Other industries have their versions of one person getting credit when others have done much work. I've heard labor and delivery nurses joke about how they'll be with a patient for hours and hours, then the doctor comes in at the end and gets the credit. And some restaurant owners don't cook, serve, bus tables, wash dishes, handle accounts--rarely even step foot in the restaurant, but it's their restaurant.<br />Amy Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05324408700941398495noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17040756.post-91778325434649049932017-07-20T12:04:14.379-04:002017-07-20T12:04:14.379-04:00Some thoughts about ghostwriting:
Different autho...Some thoughts about ghostwriting:<br /><br />Different authors have different levels of involvement in projects involving ghostwriters. Some authors may have done much work on a project that also had a ghostwriter.<br /><br />For some people, having their name on the cover is important; others may prefer to work behind the scenes.<br /><br />Even traditionally published books that weren't ghostwritten are group projects to an extent--critique partners, beta readers, perhaps an author-hired professional editor, an agent--perhaps a very editorial agent. Then even more people add their time and talents to create the book the reader will purchase.<br />Amy Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05324408700941398495noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17040756.post-79562308858915818582017-07-20T12:00:57.911-04:002017-07-20T12:00:57.911-04:00Oh. One more suggestion for OP: see if you can get...Oh. One more suggestion for OP: see if you can get a gig for a commercially published author or series. Something traditionally published. And if the folks paying you are pros, you'll have something better to show agents.BJ Muntainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12977414826388000094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17040756.post-21629251041994161552017-07-20T11:59:30.360-04:002017-07-20T11:59:30.360-04:00Donald Maass used to ghostwrite for a series. It g...Donald Maass used to ghostwrite for a series. It gave him an eye for storytelling and experience in the industry.<br /><br />Why would anyone ghostwrite? I think OP details their reasons well: getting paid for something they love doing.<br /><br />Two suggestions for OP: <br /><br />1) Negotiate contracts so you can put in your query you've ghostwritten for this author or series. As with any work for hire, it's experience. You've written full novels, and you've been paid for it.<br /><br />2) Make sure all those people out there looking for ghostwriters are willing and able to pay - NOT 'share the profits'. (I've seen ghostwriting gigs on sites saying that.)<br />BJ Muntainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12977414826388000094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17040756.post-48281611717266464182017-07-20T11:51:41.733-04:002017-07-20T11:51:41.733-04:00Oh no, Colin that was not a typo. The giant parasi...Oh no, <b>Colin</b> that was not a typo. The giant parasites of Carkoon are full of cats. So puss is the correct term. And no, it would be better if the insects were diseased or at least declawed. *shivers*E.M. Goldsmithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18387494005655553037noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17040756.post-27118854774564229822017-07-20T11:49:35.850-04:002017-07-20T11:49:35.850-04:00Susan: I echo the thanks of others for sharing thi...<b>Susan</b>: I echo the thanks of others for sharing this part of your publishing adventure with us. Very interesting and illuminating, both your question, and the discussion it has generated.<br /><br /><b>Rosanna</b>: I was going to ask if there was a winner to the contest, which isn't exactly the same as asking what was the client gift... :)Colin Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03292997431935215499noreply@blogger.com