tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17040756.post4850847238031405175..comments2024-03-18T09:09:59.625-04:00Comments on Janet Reid, Literary Agent: To delve or not to delve that is the questionJanet Reidhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00615380335938685231noreply@blogger.comBlogger56125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17040756.post-8814227773068208262011-06-24T14:14:40.771-04:002011-06-24T14:14:40.771-04:00How much will you send me for producing a 13 year ...How much will you send me for producing a 13 year old boy who would not only use the word delve, but also (voraciously) reads at a post-college level? His math skills are horrid, but language? Not a problem. He also comes with a newly-minted teenage attitude, a love of Cajun food and a dazzling array of running trophies. Product of a writer mum (me) and an avid reader (his dad), he began reading before first grade and hasn't stopped since. He also has an 11 year old sister who has similar vocabulary acumen.<br /><br />I'll be waiting on that check ;)Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16435583525995915313noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17040756.post-57033175826106940392011-06-21T22:36:13.446-04:002011-06-21T22:36:13.446-04:00My then almost husband spazzed when I used the wo...My then almost husband spazzed when I used the word "shard". He married me anyway.Virginia Llorcahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08354795459855491623noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17040756.post-9765390431573863672011-06-19T11:20:11.595-04:002011-06-19T11:20:11.595-04:00I went back and caught up on QS after this post.
...I went back and caught up on QS after this post.<br /><br />@Nichole - I have two degrees and I'm still trying to get over a PhD in Theoretical Linguistics - WOW!<br /><br />I don't write YA because I am the first to admit that I don't know how kids talk. I write about crime and criminals, because as a defense attorney, I know enough of the lingo and the voice. <br /><br />I can get through to a client a lot faster by asking him if he is down with what I am saying than asking him if he understands. I'm in NASCAR country, so telling someone that we are in the "flag lap" elicits a relieved smile whereas we are "almost finished" gets nothing. I've also told several rodeo cowboys that their "8 seconds" is ticking and they understand that I mean it is time to get serious about the situation.<br /><br />I loved The Wire, like the Shark, I don't know how much is real, but it feels real. Like Nichole said, it is all about register. Dialogue is like music. Even if a musician plays proper notes in proper order, our ears tell us if it is good or not. Same with dialogue.<br /><br />Another example is "Sons of Anarchy." I sincerely doubt your typical gang, excuse me, motorcycle club, acts or talks like they do. However, as entertainment, it works because it's what I expect, cliches and all. When I want a documentary, I'll watch a documentary.<br /><br />So, I'm sidin with the Shark on this one. "Delve" is a sour note in the query song.<br /><br />TerriTerri Coophttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07461583056862465783noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17040756.post-80827602177156741672011-06-15T13:43:45.817-04:002011-06-15T13:43:45.817-04:00That is the way to go about it. More detail. Leave...That is the way to go about it. More detail. Leave in the "bad" word, but show us why she would use it.<br /><br />Just to throw in my 2 cents, I do have a 14 year old and like me when I was his age, he throws around big words at times. I wanted to sound more adult, so does he. I think it's cute. But I have never heard him use delve. He knows what it means, and can use it in a sentence, but finds other words more useful. He told me the word was antiquated. I snorted.<br /><br />I have no problem with the word being used, but the query was lacking the details to tell us that it was a word that she would use. <br /><br />I can't wait to read the revised copy. And I can't wait to read the book. It sounds like it would be right up my alley!<br /><br />I am glad you had the guts to use it for chum!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11025654789358681386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17040756.post-81648198817369492232011-06-15T08:46:41.200-04:002011-06-15T08:46:41.200-04:00I honestly wasn't trying to start a problem by...I honestly wasn't trying to start a problem by using delve. Though the discussion that followed made me realize what the <b>real</b> problem with my query is: the reader doesn't get a real sense of who Amanda is and that she <i>is</i> the type of kid that would use delve. Delve won't be in the second attempt. Not because it became controversial, but because the query is more detailed.Brandiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10280055200244386594noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17040756.post-90357055665199769392011-06-15T01:40:30.103-04:002011-06-15T01:40:30.103-04:00Hah! My husband says "munched" all the t...Hah! My husband says "munched" all the time. :DMajahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05910173363495534903noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17040756.post-78407519217129118062011-06-14T23:38:51.685-04:002011-06-14T23:38:51.685-04:00The criticism you gave was wrong, even if your ins...The criticism you gave was wrong, even if your instincts were right and the word ought to be jettisoned. <br /><br />There women who use the word <i>piss</i>, men who use the word <i>munch</i>, and 14-year-olds who use the word <i>delve</i>. Characters in fiction are not general representations of their particular demographics, but unique people. They deviate from real people in a multitude of ways because they tend to be purer and more intense expressions of traits than real people are. <br /><br />How many older men are anything like Hannibal Lector? How many 16-year-olds have the verbal wit of Mercutio? Artimus Fowl as mentioned previously. I agree he sounds nothing like a 12-year-old ought to but I believe in the character when I read him. Authentic characters need not be statistically probable. <br /><br />This query doesn't give us a feel for the character so we default to generalities. The writer could redo it so the character's voice is more believable and the word fits, or they could save that for the pages of the work itself and write a more conventional query.Maria Calibanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03809785002346731275noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17040756.post-49541355550001282052011-06-14T22:32:25.924-04:002011-06-14T22:32:25.924-04:00I think "could" and "would" ar...I think "could" and "would" are the operative words here. I read lots of bad dialogue that anyone "could" say, but would they?Joellehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04345209675431505161noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17040756.post-38351975768845797392011-06-14T22:30:24.797-04:002011-06-14T22:30:24.797-04:00Honestly, there is probably more than one kid in m...Honestly, there is probably more than one kid in my writing class who might actually used delved in a sentence. Sometimes they blow me away and they are 11-13. However, I know where I live and what kind of education these kids are getting and also who they hang out with. Small town (island), readers (all ages), and way, way, way more adults than kids on this island. Around 3500 people live here full time, and there is only 165 kids in K-7 TOTAL. They hang with adults. They read. And they are kind of oddly unusual in both the way they act and their dialogue. That said, unless I was writing about them specifically, I wouldn't choose delve for dialogue for any fourteen year old character. However, I WOULD DEFINITELY feel fine about using it as part of a first person narrative. I "think" lots and lots of words that never make it into my conversation. And as a writer for kids, using words they may not use in the narrative is a good thing. I don't strive to teach lessons, but I don't shy away from words that might send my readers to the dictionary either. Although, I wouldn't necessarily use them in dialogue. One of the things I HATE in YA is when the author has the teens use fancy words and then says it's an SAT word. Yeah...been so much it's old news. Anyway, that's much more my pet peeve!Joellehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04345209675431505161noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17040756.post-3119818227538717682011-06-14T22:24:54.049-04:002011-06-14T22:24:54.049-04:00I have (re)produced two fourteen year old kids who...I have (re)produced two fourteen year old kids who can use delve in a conversation. When should I expect payment?Rick Andersonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04056568654507239730noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17040756.post-23122218843226220352011-06-14T22:03:33.885-04:002011-06-14T22:03:33.885-04:00Yom crusister, burgon wuspton. I know a guy who ta...Yom crusister, burgon wuspton. I know a guy who talks like this. Good luck translating that into "write" speak.Rick Andersonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04056568654507239730noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17040756.post-52310830366135089552011-06-14T16:07:37.776-04:002011-06-14T16:07:37.776-04:00*Climbing off the last bus from Lurkerville*
Every...*Climbing off the last bus from Lurkerville*<br />Everyone is getting their knickers in a knot over whether or not a 14-year-old would use the word "delved." The problem with this query isn't one little word. It's that the voice is INCONSISTENT. As Shannon Heather pointed out above, the query begins with the protagonist saying, "My name is Amanda. I'm 14 and I have an imaginary friend." That voice conveys a very different character (shy, introverted, maybe a little weird) than the paragraph in which the infamous "D" word appears. I've no problems with word nerd teens, nor shy, introverted, maybe slightly weird teens. Pick a voice and stick to it. If you can't figure out why this query isn't working, maybe you should go back to your novel (the whole flustered lot of ye!) and look at it again.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17040756.post-66906343613052781962011-06-14T15:20:22.724-04:002011-06-14T15:20:22.724-04:00I'm just excited that you used a reference to ...I'm just excited that you used a reference to The Wire so effectively :)yuvihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12508897520256129591noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17040756.post-55467336887858502962011-06-14T15:14:27.239-04:002011-06-14T15:14:27.239-04:00I think the reason why delved doesn't work is ...I think the reason why delved doesn't work is because the entire query doesn't work.<br /><br />"My name is Amanda." (Hi Amanda! This isn't an AA meeting.) 14 with an imanginary friend - WTF? You lost me right there. The query never pulls us in and does more telling than showing. Therein lies the problem with "delved" - it TELLS us. <br /><br />Should the Shark have made a comment about 14 yo's not using this word? Sure. It's her blog and if everyone takes their sticks out of their butts for five minutes they might see that this too can be a learning lesson in why it's important to have a solid query letter.<br /><br />Query Shark is all about learning. There are lessons to be learned to help write better queries, IF one is willing to delve into what she is saying more deeply.<br /><br />What she didn't say specifically, but did SHOW in the last part of her response was that word choice can draw in the reader or push them away. <br /><br />In trying to snag an agent, word choice is crucial.Shannon Heatherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06346078649346825497noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17040756.post-39560264146341590912011-06-14T14:42:03.481-04:002011-06-14T14:42:03.481-04:00Oh dear,
I had a ten year old boy in my critical r...Oh dear,<br />I had a ten year old boy in my critical reading and history classes last term. These are high school classes, one of them an AP (Advanced Placement; college credit) class. He could and would use words like that.<br /><br />The term before I had him he was enrolled in an Engish Lit. class ... at our local college.<br /><br />More than that, daughter four, who is not yet 14 can and will use that kind of vocaulary when the mood strikes her. <br /><br />Be careful when you assume things about children. I've had middle schoolers who were more adept with our langauge than any of my adult students ever were.Sha'el, Princess of Pixieshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14049854555801812071noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17040756.post-71872070373189749102011-06-14T14:15:50.743-04:002011-06-14T14:15:50.743-04:00I find it strange that 'delve' seems to ha...I find it strange that 'delve' seems to have been put in a pigeonhole that's also home to antidisestablishmentarianism. What's so weird about delve? I say delve quite often (40, f) my husband says it sometimes (42, m), and it's a word both my daughter (15) and son (11) sometimes use.<br /><br />And if we all say it...well, we may live in Cambs now, but up to 4 years ago we all lived in Medway, home of the chavvy Chatham Girls immortalised in a hit record!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17040756.post-76200222621870911612011-06-14T13:45:18.387-04:002011-06-14T13:45:18.387-04:00Another reason the critique of the word "delv...Another reason the critique of the word "delve" annoys me is that what you're suggesting is that all characters must be the same, must act their age, must conform to your perception of normal.<br /><br />In the next breath, you'll tell writers they must create unique characters who do the extraordinary, who excel in areas above others, who aren't cliche.<br /><br />It's double-talk at best. Take a step back and think about your criticism. Is it really necessary? Is it?<br /><br />If I'm reading this in a YA book, I keep reading without missing a beat.Lance Alburyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10015465605732023333noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17040756.post-67101378046769623292011-06-14T13:37:04.621-04:002011-06-14T13:37:04.621-04:00Truth is stranger than fiction. Fiction has to be ...Truth is stranger than fiction. Fiction has to be more believable than truth.<br /><br />In the context of the whole book, it may be very believable that the 14-year-old protagonist would use "delve" as a matter of course; we may get to see her as a lover of 19th century English novels, for instance. But asking someone to suspend their disbelief about a fictional character with nothing to support that is a bit too much.JShttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13974691019739092440noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17040756.post-55004379441101381852011-06-14T12:52:08.121-04:002011-06-14T12:52:08.121-04:00@Zee, you are definitely correct needing to be abl...@Zee, you are definitely correct needing to be able to use the words that our audience expects. (David Foster Wallace wrote a well-known piece on this called "Tense Present.") It would be silly to use "delve" in the context that Sasha Barin suggests above, because that type of person really wouldn't use such a specific word in conversation. This is exactly what Nicole meant by "register."<br /><br />But that's the difference between narration and dialogue, isn't it? Dialogue should reflect the speech patterns of real people, and it is usually full of misuses and grammatical answers. But narration <i>can</i> be more literary. (I usually feel it calls less attention to itself when it is, especially in the third-person.) And often it's a good idea for a writer to choose someone more literate as a narrator, so that he is capable of telling the story.<br /><br />It would have been a disaster if Fitzgerald had chosen Gatsby as his narrator. He's not literate enough to tell the tale in the finely wrought way that Nick Carraway can (and of course he is unable to see his own tragic flaws). The narrator needs at least to be smart enough to make sense of the emotional reality of the story and report on all levels of character interaction. (Of course, his own blind spots are always interesting, too.)<br /><br />Unless the story genuinely requires it (as in a story where the character's verbal limitations are in themselves of interest--e.g., Huck Finn), there is little reason to choose a narrator who is <i>limited</i> to everyday spoken English.B. E. Hopkinshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07603054986299706487noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17040756.post-62276476556082964682011-06-14T12:30:37.967-04:002011-06-14T12:30:37.967-04:00An awesome author, Allison Brennan, suggested an a...An awesome author, Allison Brennan, suggested an awesome book, Self-Editing For Fiction Writers. I immediately downloaded it onto my Nook and devoured it in 2 days, notes and all.<br /><br />This book is helpful in a million different ways, but for this topic it has a lot of information on voice. How does voice have anything to do with "delved" you ask? Well, it might just be me, but you don't want word choice to halt the voice in the MS. Where ever the voice stops is where the reader stops.<br /><br />So, if "delved" enriches the voice in your MS, use it. But, if you find yourself tripping over it or others trip over it, use something else.<br /><br />There are far too many juicy words waiting to be used to haggle over one.Shannon Heatherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06346078649346825497noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17040756.post-1906688452650677072011-06-14T12:28:17.608-04:002011-06-14T12:28:17.608-04:00Using big words and complex sentence structure in ...Using big words and complex sentence structure in speech (rather than writing) is more complicated than just knowing the words. To be understood when speaking, you have to use the words and structures your interlocutor expects. We don't really pronounce most of our words. We depend on people who speak our language to be used to the ordinary sentences we use. I was one of those teenagers, like Stephanie up there, who used words that were "too big." I still sometimes catch myself trying to be witty by saying something unexpected--and it doesn't work, not because the joke is bad, but because in most circumstances no one is listening for it and all I'll get is a "what?" Go watch an unfamiliar Gilbert and Sullivan play. Then read the libretto. How many "Oh, THAT'S what that was!" moments?<br /><br />Some genius kids stop using writing-level words when speaking because speaking-level words are more functional. The determining factor is social awareness, not vocabulary. If your kid has asperger's or is even just awkward, their narration of social facts is going to reflect the same difficulties as their vocabulary.Zee Lemkehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07152658255324664476noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17040756.post-90637209636040189692011-06-14T10:21:25.259-04:002011-06-14T10:21:25.259-04:00First off, I know no 14 year old who would use del...First off, I know no 14 year old who would use delve. Honestly, how many adults use it in casual conversation? I love writing dialogue. The moment you get it right is downright thrilling. For years, I worked as a psychotherapist. I got good at listening to what people say and what they hold back. Creating dread is where I need to clock more hours, but that is for another post.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17040756.post-29660104491076507402011-06-14T10:07:39.436-04:002011-06-14T10:07:39.436-04:00I think I'm pretty much in agreement with most...I think I'm pretty much in agreement with most of the other comments. When I was 14 I did use words like "delved" in normal conversation, but I did, and continue to, read voraciously - so obviously I'm not the norm. The query made the kid sound normal. I can't say many other kids in my grade who were/are "normal" would use that word.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17469607194374223211noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17040756.post-87394050230070433952011-06-14T10:01:29.998-04:002011-06-14T10:01:29.998-04:00It is a challenge for me, largely because, as a te...It is a challenge for me, largely because, as a teenager, I spoke like that and worse. My parents had far above average vocabularies and I read vociferously (I do use that kind of word everyday) from a young age. <br /><br />As my sixteen-year-old daughter explains, I was not a "regular" teenager by any means. On the other hand, having been exposed to me all her life, she also uses words like delved and irked and the like every day, just with improper grammar. (I now have a whole phalanx of intimates and friends stuck using "irksome" routinely. I'm contagious.)<br /><br />Such language is "normal" for me and for her, even if it isn't for regular kids her age. <br /><br />This can provide an opportunity, however, by providing contrast between characters of a similar age. Do I usually have at least one character that speaks as I do (in complete sentences with frightening logic and vocabulary)? Yes. You can bet they are extraordinary (something frequently found in my stories). Contrast them with teens using more informal sentence structure and less refined vocabulary, more emotional responses and less subtlety, I can readily distinguish between characters and who they are, almost effortlessly.<br /><br />However, that can only work if I pay attention to what's "normal" and what isn't, as I do with my daughter and her friends.Stephanie Barrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17772217449161603561noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17040756.post-40103990608762320522011-06-14T09:51:22.572-04:002011-06-14T09:51:22.572-04:00Sorry to hear you got beaten up over that, because...Sorry to hear you got beaten up over that, because I thought that comment in particular was spot on. Lots of 14-year-olds *know* the word delve, but I just don't see any of them using it in conversation. Heck, I'm 40 and I don't think I've ever used that when speaking.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com