tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17040756.post4322574401269709622..comments2024-03-18T09:09:59.625-04:00Comments on Janet Reid, Literary Agent: BetabalooJanet Reidhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00615380335938685231noreply@blogger.comBlogger59125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17040756.post-43868538854388602742017-05-12T10:38:20.115-04:002017-05-12T10:38:20.115-04:00Thanks, Janet! This is so helpful. (And sorry I di...Thanks, Janet! This is so helpful. (And sorry I didn't pop into the comments earlier - for some reason this didn't show up in my RSS feed this time around.)<br /><br />And thanks everyone in the comments. It sounds like it's time to move onto full manuscript reads and I love the idea of using non-writer betas. I actually had an epiphany right after I sent this to Janet, so I'm starting to move past concerns over the inconsistency of feedback and back into excitement for the next phase.<br /><br />Oh, and @Robert, I should probably clarify: the feedback isn't inconsistent *and* negative. It's overwhelmingly positive. But things like one person saying a piece of internal reflection really sealed a character for them vs. another person saying that same reflection felt too on the nose because they already understood the character's motivation had me questioning how to proceed. Sounds like it's off to longer reads!Gigihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09199129765216390246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17040756.post-86578374345407617602017-05-12T10:19:17.081-04:002017-05-12T10:19:17.081-04:00@Kitty - My betas were: 1) a former colleague who ...<br />@Kitty - My betas were: 1) a former colleague who also writes novels and is currently querying one (we did a beta read trade), 2) Another writer about to query but who I don't really know (she belongs to an online writers networking group I'm part of and posted in the group looking to trade beta reads, so another trade), 3) a friend of a friend who finished his own manuscript last year and I was a beta reader for (so called in the favor), and 4) another editor/aspiring novelist from that same networking group. <br /><br />So, for me, networking groups have been a great resource for finding non-friend betas, but definitely be ready to trade reads in that kind of scenario.Gigihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09199129765216390246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17040756.post-38422180094285814432017-05-11T10:06:52.360-04:002017-05-11T10:06:52.360-04:00(I tried to comment on this post when it first sho...(I tried to comment on this post when it first showed up in my Feedly but then it wasn't on the site? Weird.)<br /><br />I don't think your betas necessarily have to read your genre, but you should understand their taste/experience going in and parse their feedback accordingly. Like, one of my early betas offered incredibly useful feedback on weapons and the thought processes of a scientist--but some of his comments made it very clear that he didn't read much YA fantasy. It didn't invalidate his feedback in other areas, it just led me to look at those particular comments and say, "Yeah no, it's fine as is."<br /><br />It can also help parse conflicts if you have a solid understanding of what you're trying to accomplish, because then you can weigh each comment against the metric of "Does this help me accomplish my goal or not?" So if you can't decide who's right, perhaps you need to do some soul-searching on what your ideal version of this book, this scene, this sentence would look like so you can place feedback in context.<br /><br />And some betas (or editors or crit partners) just suck. Their styles aren't at all compatible with yours, they don't have enough understanding of the craft to explain their reactions in a way that's useful, they try to rework everything in their own image, etc. If you've got one of those on your hands, the only productive thing to do is to dump them.Brittanyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02661380649581961221noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17040756.post-50996427883726189432017-05-11T10:01:09.777-04:002017-05-11T10:01:09.777-04:00Is there anything they agree on?
I only let three ...Is there anything they agree on?<br />I only let three or four read the work at a time – if they say: <br /> ‘…The start is too slow; the plot is unrealistic; I don’t relate to the main character; you didn’t explain xxxx well enough; it’s too long; the ending is a cop-out.’<br />You work on it and give it to three other crit partners. They say:<br /> ‘…The start is too slow; you didn’t explain xxx and it’s too long.’<br />You’ve fixed the plot, main character and ending. <br />You work on the problems that remain and test it on other beta readers.<br />When there are no major problems, it’s ready to send or pitch.<br /> <br />There are lots of things I don't trust non-professionals to advise on, but if a close friend or relative or anyone doesn't relate to the main character or doesn't understand at some point, then I believe it needs fixing because there will be plenty more readers like them.<br />Peter Taylorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02653515054036432820noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17040756.post-3775956242209836472017-05-11T07:12:09.032-04:002017-05-11T07:12:09.032-04:00My advice is to do nothing for now--don't even...My advice is to do nothing for now--don't even look at the pages. But in a month or two, start your revision without rereading your beta readers' comments. The ones that resonate with you will bubble to the surface. You can ignore the rest. Good luck!Ellenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06794791220323089387noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17040756.post-71070076378524701972017-05-10T21:13:03.010-04:002017-05-10T21:13:03.010-04:00I'll second what everyone else has said about ...I'll second what everyone else has said about 50 pages not being enough. Also, you'll get different feedback from writers than you will from non-writers. Sounds like you're at the stage of needing non-writer feedback. Yes, be specific about what you want from them.<br /><br />One additional thing: give your beta reader a description right up front of what kind of story it is. A query would be excellent, or something similar to cover copy. If someone thinks they're about to dig in to a cozy mystery when you've actually written a gothic horror story, you're going to get some really discordant feedback, even after they realize what the story is.<br /><br />Beta readers who are a good fit are hard to find, and worth their weight in gold once you do. Treat them well. Only send your best work. Don't argue with their opinions. Thank them profusely for their time and effort. Good luck to you.<br /><br />Jessica, that is great news! Congratulations and well done!!<br /><br /><br />OT: In case anyone might miss me [cue laughter], I'm going to be absent from most online places until after the weekend. Hope you all have a good one!<br /><br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17040756.post-78450852779114554032017-05-10T21:03:31.385-04:002017-05-10T21:03:31.385-04:00Susan - yes sometimes it drives me nuts too :)
J...<b>Susan</b> - yes sometimes it drives me nuts too :) <br /><br /><b>Julie</b> - I worked with wild bears in undergrad and when we had to handle their cubs, we smeared Vicks all over the babies afterward so the mamas wouldn't reject them. (It's a long story but the interaction was beneficial to the bears as well as the human scientists). The point is, who knew Vicks had so many uses. Lennon Farishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03570629350169504234noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17040756.post-7803858402831414522017-05-10T20:42:58.907-04:002017-05-10T20:42:58.907-04:00I'm afraid I didn't have the mental facult...I'm afraid I didn't have the mental faculties do get through all of today's comments.<br /><br />I just want to say to OP that I've been down the route of adding beta readers. It's not always helpful. It's important to know exactly what you want from betas before you utilize them, just as it's vital for writers to know the difference between beta readers and critique partners.Megan Vhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00752842865397799428noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17040756.post-64482434141751865592017-05-10T20:23:42.126-04:002017-05-10T20:23:42.126-04:00Your MS is probably OK. If you had any hinkies tha...Your MS is probably OK. If you had any hinkies that two people would agree are problems, you would be getting the same feedback from two or more readers. Since this is not happening, odds are your stuff works as is.<br /><br />It may be a bit much to expect a beta reader to pore over an entire MS, but Ms. Reid has a valid point. It is a bit much to expect readers to get an accurate read from a 50 page read. There are lots of things that could go wrong starting with p. 51.<br /><br />Steve Stubbshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13421775912951050610noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17040756.post-85743817015933896842017-05-10T15:50:33.889-04:002017-05-10T15:50:33.889-04:00I'm with BJ on this -- and Janet alluded to it...I'm with BJ on this -- and Janet alluded to it in her answer if I'm reading it correctly -- 50 pages isn't really a beta read, it's a critique. I think if you're looking for an overview, you want someone to read the whole novel. Ultimately, it's hard for a reader to know if the beginning works unless s/he reads the whole thing. Also, since beginnings are notoriously hard to nail (at least in my experience), I think that's a great question for any beta reader -- does the beginning work?<br /><br />And many congrats, Jessica!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00057611467208638753noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17040756.post-45632920394881588052017-05-10T15:20:41.030-04:002017-05-10T15:20:41.030-04:00I know that there a lot of books that I haven'...I know that there a lot of books that I haven't gotten past fifty pages on. I can't say it is a break point for me because there are so many ways to get to fifty pages.<br /><br />As a beta reader, I like to read stuff outside of my genres. No matter the genre a story is about the interactions of the characters. That should shine above the genre. A different perspective can help point a different direction if that doesn't quite get there.<br /><br />Speaking of betas, I can always use an upgrade. I would be proud to let any of you read my stuff. I have a couple of thrillers waiting for a different phase of the moon and I am eighty nine thousand words into a sci-fi thing about the first people to leave Earth. They had to leave because they tried to hide tech that could change the face of war. When ITER failed and threatened to create a star in Provence, the world found out about that tech and governments got paranoid.<br /><br />If you wish to read something, contact me at cfenner13@the gmail thing.Craig Fhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07157301156577795781noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17040756.post-54811662894153062212017-05-10T14:36:15.435-04:002017-05-10T14:36:15.435-04:00While it is definitely useful to have readers who ...While it is definitely useful to have readers who read your genre, it's also sometimes helpful to have someone who doesn't generally read the genre go through it. My best, most reliable and longest-term CP is a horror writer and I doubt she's ever read a contemporary YA book apart from mine. Yet her critiques and suggestions are always spot on. Especially when relating to pace or plot points.Kate Larkindalehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06202347563426692610noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17040756.post-17313455387051437062017-05-10T14:09:51.547-04:002017-05-10T14:09:51.547-04:00"Make sure your beta readers read the genre y...<i> "Make sure your beta readers read the genre you are writing."<br /><br />This keeps coming up and I think to an extent this is true. BUT, someone who has a good eye can catch things in a work whether they read your genre or not. </i><br /><br />Someone who doesn't read in your genre can absolutely help with issues like pacing, characterization, etc, and can be an extremely valuable beta reader.<br /><br />Where they're less helpful is on tropes and genre norms. In an extreme example from my life, at a revision retreat, I read the fantasy ms of a member of my group and she hit virtually every single fantasy trope in use. She didn't read fantasy--which is crazy she was trying to write it--and neither did anyone in the group except me. She did receive good advice on how to shore up characterization, for example, but as a fantasy reader. I saw so much more to talk about, even though it put me in a hard critique situation. I recommended she read Rae Carson's GIRL OF FIRE AND THORNS trilogy since it twisted the 'chosen one' trope beautifully. I've been on the opposite side of this, too, when my children's lit critique group read my mystery for the adult market. The Sleepy Onehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17406738871201908077noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17040756.post-37098403204008255522017-05-10T13:57:12.896-04:002017-05-10T13:57:12.896-04:00This may or may not be useful, but when I beta for...This may or may not be useful, but when I beta for someone for the first time I tell them a little about me in terms of what I like to read, how I read, and things that may help them categorize my comments (e.g. I have a short attention span. I tend to skim/skip long passages of narration but I have a very good memory and tend to pick up on very subtle details so if I miss something it's likely many others will as well. Asking / offering this type of info may help you wade through the interpretation waters.lamandarinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13816210610621918740noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17040756.post-14760786689900952562017-05-10T13:16:09.217-04:002017-05-10T13:16:09.217-04:00"Make sure your beta readers read the genre y..."Make sure your beta readers read the genre you are writing."<br /><br />This keeps coming up and I think to an extent this is true. BUT, someone who has a good eye can catch things in a work whether they read your genre or not. <br /><br />At B&W, one person who is a lovely epic fantasy writer has been posting chapters of her novel and she's been getting feedback from a variety of people, many of whom don't read fantasy. Some of the advice she discounts simply to people not being familiar with the genre, but some comments have had some interesting insight. Fantasy readers or not, these are people who read a lot and recognize things.<br /><br />One man posted a short piece that is absolutely not something I would normally read, but it was so beautifully written it was like reading poetry. I couldn't get it out of my mind afterwards even though it was quite off balanced and the MC was a killer.<br /><br />I think I was able to give some valuable comments. I hope so.<br /><br />I may not ever ride a dressage horse, but that doesn't mean I can't appreciate what they are and recognize a great one. Julie Weathershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13725236516593676381noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17040756.post-73749905684909623592017-05-10T13:04:29.669-04:002017-05-10T13:04:29.669-04:00Jessica, congratulations!!!
Claire, I totally und...<b>Jessica</b>, congratulations!!!<br /><br /><b>Claire</b>, I totally understand, and thank you for what you did share--very helpful! I'm working with my creative writing students on fiction and am always looking for ways to improve our Peer Editing worksheets. <br /><br /><b>Ashes</b>, I am in awe of such an organized revision process... as a dedicated pantser, I am taking notes for the someday day when I finally have a whole MS to polish, lol. <br /><br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14482921874963872735noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17040756.post-65405914715578830612017-05-10T12:48:46.102-04:002017-05-10T12:48:46.102-04:00Kitty,
Where do I find beta readers?
- Some peopl...<b>Kitty,</b><br />Where do I find beta readers?<br /><br />- Some people ask if they can do this. This implies you are deiscussing your WIP with friends who like to read.<br />- I ask readers whose mind, reading habits, etc. I like and think will be helpful in some way.<br />- I ask on social media. (I make it as clear as I can what I'm looking for.)<br />- I asked work colleagues in Scotland (because my series is mainly set there) and friends in Albania (because the third novel spends time there).<br />roadkills-r-ushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14029861300358380117noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17040756.post-51793444588897917222017-05-10T12:43:09.332-04:002017-05-10T12:43:09.332-04:00I've never considered the 50 pages thing. My w...I've never considered the 50 pages thing. My wife reads each chapter (or however many I write at a whack) as I print them. I get instant feedback this way, she gets instant gratification (to an extent), and her frustration ("Where is the next chapter?!?" 8^) helps keep me motivated.<br />When I am ready for other eyeballs, I send out fulls. I am going to start encouraging feedback along the way, though. Two readers beside my wife tend to do this; it's both instructive and entertaining.<br />I tell them what I am looking for at that stage.<br />One hundred words!roadkills-r-ushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14029861300358380117noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17040756.post-44770729410414082782017-05-10T12:40:59.104-04:002017-05-10T12:40:59.104-04:00I'm poking my nose in again, but celebrating f...I'm poking my nose in again, but celebrating finishing a chapter.<br /><br />My critique partners and I exchange chapters along the way so we can make adjustments as we're going. The same with the workshop. You can't tell everything about a story in 50 pages, but you can give some valuable feedback. Plus, it's not so daunting to critique it in smaller chunks and giving some in depth comments as opposed to receiving a 700,000-word manuscript all at one time or even a 120,000-word one.<br /><br />After the puppy is done, edited, revised, polished and slept on, we do the final "Here's the whole thing. What do you think?"<br /><br />The Rain Crow has a completely different opening due to some early comments and it's a lot stronger. This works for us. It may not work for everyone.Julie Weathershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13725236516593676381noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17040756.post-56357829887631747242017-05-10T12:40:44.167-04:002017-05-10T12:40:44.167-04:00When it comes to critiques (or beta reads), not ev...When it comes to critiques (or beta reads), not everyone will agree. And that's okay.<br /><br />It sounds like your first 50 pages are pretty clean. Time to get the whole thing read. Personally, while I might give a critique group only a chapter or two at a time, I wouldn't bother with beta readers unless I were giving them the whole manuscript. In my opinion, a beta reader is just that - a reader. You want a reader's point of view as to how your book is doing, and readers read full books, not partials.<br /><br />Remember that if only one person mentions something, it's probably opinion. If two or more mention it, then you need to look at it.<br /><br />And you say you've tried looking for patterns, but they don't seem to be there. How deep are you going for the patterns? Why does one reader hate that scene while another likes it? Could it be that the second person likes the characterization happening there, while the first person doesn't think a plot point works? Does this plot point affect any of the other criticisms here or later in the novel?<br /><br />But really, 50 pages isn't a beta read. It's a critique. And if your beta readers aren't writers, then they don't know how to properly critique. Which is why you give them specific questions, like Janet says. Especially if you're only giving them 50 pages.<br /><br />Jessica: Congrats!BJ Muntainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12977414826388000094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17040756.post-73674557526774384832017-05-10T12:29:44.096-04:002017-05-10T12:29:44.096-04:00I'm going to hit a note here that's alread...I'm going to hit a note here that's already been hit but can always stand repeating:<br /><br />Make sure your beta readers read the genre you are writing. <br /><br />People who don't read in the genre you write often give feedback that feels inconsistent with the people who do. <br /><br /><br />I tackled my beta reader feedback very systematically. It arrived in all forms, some betas did editorial letter style feedback, some commented on chapters or chunks, some made inline comments. It was overwhelming. <br /><br />The first thing I did was break down all the feedback into bulleted lists. Then I combined the lists, highlighted ideas that were reoccurring and deleted suggestions I had chewed over and decided not to act on. <br /><br />Next I turned each bullet point into an actionable item. I divided my actionable items into what Veronica Roth describes as "local" and "global" issues: things that could be fixed in a scene or chapter (fight is confusing) and things that stretched out large sections (sidekick is unlikable). I ordered the local list chronologically as it appeared in the story. And then, I rolled up my sleeves.Asheshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12797621675670255704noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17040756.post-53449139924457282902017-05-10T12:24:49.165-04:002017-05-10T12:24:49.165-04:00Congratulations, Jessica! Books and animals - a gi...Congratulations, Jessica! Books and animals - a girl after my own heart. Best of luck on the job search.Beth Carpenterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02447148196867821907noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17040756.post-87489695090399519532017-05-10T12:13:41.051-04:002017-05-10T12:13:41.051-04:00Thank you Claire!! Now to find a job haha!
I thou...Thank you Claire!! Now to find a job haha!<br /><br />I thought of another useful thing! Specific questions are a must, because some readers won't have anything to say until you prompt them. Pages and pages of silence, but when you ask "hey, what did you think about Mrs. Peterson?" they have paragraphs to say! Also, I get all my readers from the goodreads beta reading forum. It's the most active and most reliable website I've seen so far. The Nanowrimo site is also active right after November ends, but I've had mixed results there.Jessicahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16529767708330742025noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17040756.post-46565942750030218932017-05-10T12:10:31.912-04:002017-05-10T12:10:31.912-04:00Barbara Etlin, I also have a full manuscript criti...Barbara Etlin, I also have a full manuscript critique group. We only meet when we have a full manuscript to discuss, so we'll go months without a meeting. It's really valuable to get feedback on the project as a whole. A 5-pages-every two weeks group *really* didn't work for me unless I just wanted a grammar polish.The Sleepy Onehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17406738871201908077noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17040756.post-15475408906668022152017-05-10T12:06:10.651-04:002017-05-10T12:06:10.651-04:00Julie, I also had an Aussie, great design, herding...<br />Julie, I also had an Aussie, great design, herding mentality, but such a wonderful soul. You cracked me up with the Vicks comment, plus he was older. And a guy. Epic.<br /><br />Colin, I agree with " if they're honest, they'll tell you." I plead for the most constructive criticism, but it's sometimes just compliments. and no my writing is not that polished as yet. <br /><br />Great post, and comments today, par for the course. <br /><br />Scarlet Billows, good luck with the fabric hunting, I liked the Jackson Pollacky blood "splatter and drip", but I would recommend more of a red and black Rorschach pattern....what do you see?<br /><br />Cheers Hank french sojournhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14262858704848580714noreply@blogger.com