tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17040756.post2586098471101338120..comments2024-03-18T09:09:59.625-04:00Comments on Janet Reid, Literary Agent: Word count, cause why drop a topic after only a gazillion posts?Janet Reidhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00615380335938685231noreply@blogger.comBlogger39125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17040756.post-71040675216999806562017-05-25T23:59:46.851-04:002017-05-25T23:59:46.851-04:00When I finish with the first draft I always say th...When I finish with the first draft I always say that there are about 20,000 words hiding in between the lines somewhere trying desperately to find their way onto the page.Annay Dawsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08931961028233363261noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17040756.post-72188384700453406832017-05-25T21:51:32.489-04:002017-05-25T21:51:32.489-04:00I tend to be a lean, mean, writing machine myself....I tend to be a lean, mean, writing machine myself. I write lean books, that mean a lot to me, and some days writing is my only function. It helps that I write YA and MG. Shorter books go over a little bit better with that crowd than the adult epic fantasy people.<br /><br />I try(try, mind you) to not think about word counts. It's hard. But, OP, if there is one thing I've learned in the last couple of years, it's this: <br /><br />Word counts are designed to turn writers into hamsters. Take one sip of that potion and you'll spend your days on a wheel of what ifs, instead of using your magic to part the waters of a slushy, shark-filled ocean.<br /> Megan Vhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00752842865397799428noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17040756.post-21710287310352132882017-05-25T19:56:49.827-04:002017-05-25T19:56:49.827-04:00Can't wait to read everyone's books, no ma...Can't wait to read everyone's books, no matter how long or short! :)Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03581361783795436259noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17040756.post-8876877490314403312017-05-25T19:17:02.807-04:002017-05-25T19:17:02.807-04:00*whew*!! Things have been busy at work... but I th...*whew*!! Things have been busy at work... but I think I'm seeing the light at the end of the tunnel. Either that or I'm dead.<br /><br />Whichever, the more I read about word length and queries and titles and so on, the more convinced I am that we all just need to be amazing writers and write amazing books. That way, no-one will care that you've just submitted a tome because it's so good, it can't <i>not</i> be published. That's the theory I'm running with anyway. If I get an agent and get published, maybe it'll prove to have merit. :)Colin Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03292997431935215499noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17040756.post-11180521466616373212017-05-25T18:49:35.703-04:002017-05-25T18:49:35.703-04:00"(2) > 100K is Too Much, unless your name ..."(2) > 100K is Too Much, unless your name is Steven King. The reason is, over long means it will be too expensive to manufacture."<br /><br />Noooo. See, this is the problem. 'Rules' like that are what give writers anxiety attacks. If nothing else, they're incredibly genre specific. Quick, name me some successful modern epic fantasy that's under 100K? Even 'rules' which are supposed to apply to fantasy often try to cap it out at 120K for debuts, which just isn't reflected in the actual books being published.<br /><br />I queried at 155K, I think. It's now in its final stages of pre-pub edits and it's just short of 175. This is not a crazy outlier, it's totally normal in fantasy. Neither my agent nor my publisher are concerned about word count. If it was waffley, it would be a problem. But if it was waffley, that would be a problem at 90K, too.<br /><br />I'm not saying there aren't some agents who are going to pass on your book if it's on the long side. But if you wrote a book that's that length because that's the length it needs to be, and someone passes on it because they have a hard rule about wordcount, then they weren't the agent for you. Don't sweat it. <br /><br />Sam Hawkehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05549251130820223139noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17040756.post-23820678850381004782017-05-25T16:26:32.879-04:002017-05-25T16:26:32.879-04:00In my experience, not all agents are as open-minde...In my experience, not all agents are as open-minded about word count as our Queen. Many agents at conferences and online say they don't want manuscripts outside of a particular range which varies from genre to genre. I happen to believe some of them break their own rules if they stumble upon a great manuscript (e.g. Divergent), but they're clear about what they're looking for. So I would add that maybe, if you feel you have the best book possible and the word count is iffy, leave the number out of your query as Janet has suggested in previous posts. And also query the agents who aren't vocal on the subject.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00057611467208638753noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17040756.post-53716432010133763212017-05-25T15:30:45.363-04:002017-05-25T15:30:45.363-04:00My YA thriller that came out earlier this year was...My YA thriller that came out earlier this year was about 52k words when I sold it and about 50k when it was published. YA (which includes Divergent) can have a shorter word count. In Roth's case, I can see why her agent and later editor had her bump up the word count of her novel due to the setting/story.The Sleepy Onehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17406738871201908077noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17040756.post-48325212892002624542017-05-25T15:29:17.552-04:002017-05-25T15:29:17.552-04:00Awesome advice as always.Awesome advice as always.Ardenwolfehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14053900506482830292noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17040756.post-9429754789242354772017-05-25T14:41:59.622-04:002017-05-25T14:41:59.622-04:00My drafts tend to be around 70K, but I always end ...My drafts tend to be around 70K, but I always end up finishing closer to 90K. Which is long for YA. I'm always looking for things to cut. But there comes a point where you can't cut anything more without losing something important.Kate Larkindalehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06202347563426692610noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17040756.post-84812587122357203642017-05-25T14:28:12.769-04:002017-05-25T14:28:12.769-04:00From what I have seen and heard from numerous peop...From what I have seen and heard from numerous people, first drafts very often come in at 50K or so. You don't have to be Veronica Roth to have that experience.<br /><br />50K does not a novel make. It is a novella, but if your publisher wants a novel, you may have to write some more. That is why they call 50K a first draft.<br /><br />Time for a second draft.<br /><br />There seem to be two rules: (1) don't pad to get > 50K. Readers can spot padding when they see it, and (2) > 100K is Too Much, unless your name is Steven King. The reason is, over long means it will be too expensive to manufacture.<br /><br />Nobody ever said this was easy.<br />Steve Stubbshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13421775912951050610noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17040756.post-86888490721563488402017-05-25T14:26:30.423-04:002017-05-25T14:26:30.423-04:00I’ve tried to adhere to word count guidelines on “...I’ve tried to adhere to word count guidelines on “Escape from Brazil.” Before I learned there were word-count “rules” my manuscript was over 60,000 words and it was about 40% complete in my mind. I did a hard edit and removed 20,000 words, and decided to exclude two future story arcs. <br /><br />The completed manuscript came in at 84,000 words.<br /><br />Now in the revision stage I’m adding “accessories.” The revised version is 75% or so complete and I’m at 85,000 words. That 100,000 word wall for thrillers looms. I convinced myself 102,000 words will be fine, but I don’t want to risk 110,000 words.<br />Joseph S.https://www.blogger.com/profile/07437663031050410028noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17040756.post-28806564979918996142017-05-25T14:21:49.751-04:002017-05-25T14:21:49.751-04:00Ha! Kathy, you made me check.
Bile: 3 times. And...Ha! Kathy, you made me check. <br /><br />Bile: 3 times. And one of those was automobile. Whew! I'm feelin' good. Now, about those "ly" adverbs...John Davis Frainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18020019400599228492noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17040756.post-40975415753956109292017-05-25T14:11:06.205-04:002017-05-25T14:11:06.205-04:00Robert Ceres, Here's my list of search and des...<b>Robert Ceres</b>, Here's my list of search and destroy words: just, really, very, ask, some, start, then, but, pretty, now, every (in all variations, like everyone, everybody, everytime), some (in all variations), and "ly" words. Some suggest "shrug" is often overused. My characters don't shrug, but they have way too much bile (rising, churning, burning), waaaay too much bile.<br /><br />I remove the words after I think the draft is complete. In an 80k manuscript, this can delete several thousand words. Yikes!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03581361783795436259noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17040756.post-47054684145810292472017-05-25T13:42:07.523-04:002017-05-25T13:42:07.523-04:00Some YA word counts:
Fault In Our Stars 92K
If I S...Some YA word counts:<br />Fault In Our Stars 92K<br />If I Stay 50K<br />It’s Kind of a Funny Story 143K<br />Pride and Prejudice (YA in the sense that it is a coming of age novel) 121K<br /><br />In my critiques of all of my CP’s I found lots of extra words. In my writing I found lots of back-story, then lots of extra words. I went from 115K to 88K.<br /><br />Here is a really really good trick. Go to one of the many word counting sites and cut and paste large sections of your writing into the word counter. When I did this I was horrified. Many, many many’s and very very many very’s (is that how you pluralize these words? And who knew pluralize was even a word?) Also, a lot of just’s, and that’s. And then an extraordinary number of ly words. It was relatively painless to find and replace (search and destroy) and it definitely improved things. Then I went after dialog tags. To quote a Jane Austin letter to her sister Cassandra on P&P, “there are a few Typical errors–& a ‘said he’ or a ‘said she’ would sometimes make the Dialogue more immediately clear–but ‘I do not write for such dull Elves as have not a great deal of Ingenuity themselves.’”Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02694333358894726440noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17040756.post-85727990287343183862017-05-25T13:37:36.534-04:002017-05-25T13:37:36.534-04:00Like BJ, I draft short. So my next draft needs lot...Like BJ, I draft short. So my next draft needs lots of pertinent incidents and character building to give some flesh and skin to my story. <br /><br />I do worry about keeping within a 10,000 word limit, aiming as Donnaeve wrote in her post, between 90,000-100,000. <br /><br />But I had never stopped to think that agents are another set of fresh (expert) eyes as are publishers. So a revise and submit would be par for the course with debut writers. <br /><br />OP: Thank you for running the hamster wheel so that all of us benefit from Janet's wisdom. Lisa Bodenheimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17809067722921953857noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17040756.post-68279462485259904972017-05-25T13:36:13.536-04:002017-05-25T13:36:13.536-04:00My thrillers all ended up just shy of 100k. grew ...My thrillers all ended up just shy of 100k. grew comfortable with that and have my sights in that area for the sci-fi thingie. t was running long and when I looked at it, I saw that there two books mashed up in it. I separated that and now it feels comfortable again.<br /><br />I'm glad I don't have superstitions to dump on top of that.Craig Fhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07157301156577795781noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17040756.post-73739882685999735992017-05-25T13:28:26.267-04:002017-05-25T13:28:26.267-04:00I read the first book of the Divergent series, the...I read the first book of the Divergent series, there was one scene where the m.c. essentially zip-lined across the abandoned city skyline with her new friends. It was a super creative idea and fun scene, but even reading the book I thought, what did that have to do with the plot? It seemed like something an editor would tell an author to cut, maybe incorporate elsewhere. <br /><br />Then (a few years ago) I read this article, and Veronica Roth said that was one that she added! <br /><br />Lennon Farishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03570629350169504234noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17040756.post-6676848710970957762017-05-25T11:25:28.833-04:002017-05-25T11:25:28.833-04:00I draft short. I concentrate on the ending, and tr...I draft short. I concentrate on the ending, and try to get to the ending as quickly as possible. As I do so, I learn more about the characters, the situation, the subplots, etc. I have no problems adding to lengthen a novella-length draft into a novel-length manuscript because a novella-length novel is pretty shallow. I love adding depth.<br /><br />Kathy-of-the-best-last-name: Somehow, I don't think Ms. Roth had beta readers. At least, not beta readers who knew how to express what was missing. But I think it helped (now that I've read the rest of the comments) that the novel was YA. YA does tend to be shorter than adult fiction. <br /><br />(No, I haven't read Divergent or seen the movies. I am woefully behind in popular culture, and by the time I catch up, it will have changed again. It has changed about ten times in the decade since I gave up my television habits, and it's hard to keep up without television.)BJ Muntainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12977414826388000094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17040756.post-49428607151866343652017-05-25T11:13:06.191-04:002017-05-25T11:13:06.191-04:00I've always said, don't sweat the word cou...I've always said, don't sweat the word count. A book will be as long as it needs to be.<br /><br />However.<br /><br />Manuscripts with a very high word count (for its genre) are most likely overwritten and in need of editing. A lot of beginning writers follow the 'a book will be as long as it needs to be' to justify writing a 300K word novel. If you try to explain that it needs editing, that it could be shortened, they bring up this justification in a huff. These writers often refuse to edit, because those 300K words are all perfect.<br /><br />Very, very few 300K word debut novels ever get published. Especially today. And it's hard enough in the publishing marathon today without shooting yourself in the foot by writing too long.<br /><br />Wordcounts that are too short, as noted in this post, tend to be missing important bits.<br /><br />But don't worry about the word count in your first draft. After that draft, if it's beyond the normal word count either way, you can use that as a clue that something may needs fixing. Is it much shorter than most novels in your genre? Are you missing something? Is it much longer? Can you cut things? Do you have too much unnecessary verbiage, too many navel-gazing scenes, too much repetition? <br /><br />The 'wow' thing about the Veronica Roth story is that Ms. Volpe even read the work, after seeing that word count. Many agents wouldn't. Many won't take on novels that require that amount of work. I had one agent see my Canadian spellings and say, "Oh, this is going to take too much editing" and passed. There must have been something in that query letter that really intrigued her. <br /><br />In conclusion: Yes, story is more important than word count. BUT 'divergent' word counts can show a problem in the writing. For this reason, many agents and editors won't look at debut novels outside a certain range.BJ Muntainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12977414826388000094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17040756.post-38562440341724010962017-05-25T10:17:30.161-04:002017-05-25T10:17:30.161-04:00I write YA. My first finished draft was 115k words...I write YA. My first finished draft was 115k words. I had agents come back and tell me it was great writing, but it was way too long for a debut. It needed to be between 60 and 75,000 words and that I should revise. I was able to get it down to 89k when I landed my agent who still wanted to cut 15,000 words from it. So I definitely think at least in the category of young adult, there are clear boundaries. However, fantasy or dystopian novels allow higher word count for world building. I don't know if that's true for adult books. Stephanie https://www.blogger.com/profile/11135131231969141136noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17040756.post-82843470544428273182017-05-25T09:27:08.293-04:002017-05-25T09:27:08.293-04:00Oh, thank you! This sufficiently answers that age-...Oh, thank you! This sufficiently answers that age-old question of "done" versus "ready" and is extremely helpful for us perfectionist folk. <br /><br />Karen McCoyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02640324898284007337noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17040756.post-70075541448039124572017-05-25T09:16:59.157-04:002017-05-25T09:16:59.157-04:00I'm not awake yet, so why am I trying to be co...I'm not awake yet, so why am I trying to be coherent? I don't know? I like to inflict pain and suffering on people?<br /><br />"Please don't eat me,"<br /><br />"But, but, you're so tasty!"<br /><br />This made me laugh. I've probably told the story about my youngest and SEAL team 6, but I'm old and will tell it again.<br /><br />They had a base at one of his bases. The civilian armorer contractor the govt hired was kind of an idiot and took forever, so people started bringing their weapons to Will to fix because they needed them fixed right and right now. Then the SEAL team did also. <br /><br />He had one weapon finished and returned it to the SEAL base, which was on their's but separate. A guy said, "Yeah, let me go get him. Wait right here. Don't you f***ing move."<br /><br />"No, sir. I won't move."<br /><br />Another one came by. "What are you doing?"<br /><br />"Delivering this weapon."<br /><br />"It's too f***ing hot to stand out here baking, come inside."<br /><br />"But I was told to wait right here."<br /><br />"F*** that. Stay in this room and don't look at anything."<br /><br />"No, sir. I won't look at anything."<br /><br />First guy sees him. "I thought I told you not to move."<br /><br />"Someone else told me to wait in here while he went to get ____. Please don't kill me."<br /><br />Anyway, back to word count. Someone at B&W has an epic fantasy they pitched at a conference. The agent told her, send it in, but our agency doesn't take anything over 100,000 words. You'll have to cut it down.<br /><br />This drives me bat crap insane to put these artificial limits on books regardless of genre. Epic or high fantasy and historicals often take longer because there's a lot of world building going on.<br /><br /><i>The Rain Crow</i> is sitting at 140,000 words right now and I'm not nearly finished. I'm well on my way, but a long way from done. I'm not concerned because it was all chunk writing and as the story filled in I realized the first volume would end a lot sooner than I anticipated. A lot of the stuff written now happens beyond the first Battle of Manassass, which is where it ends. I think. <br /><br />There are also assassinations, murders, and plots within plots, that I hadn't planned on. I guess that happens when you let the characters tell you their story instead of you cramming them in a box. They just break out and try to strangle me in my sleep when I do that anyway.<br /><br />I've worried about word count on B&W and a lot of more talented writers than I will ever be have given the same advice, "Just write the best story you can. Worry about word count later."<br /><br />I worried about <i>Far Rider</i> being too long and one agent wants more world building and more character development on some characters. That won't come with fewer words.<br /><br />Anyway, far over my word limit. I apologize. Jack Whyte gave me some sage advice while we were holed up drinking and yakking about everything under the ancient sun. Maybe it applies here. "Write the damned story!"Julie Weathershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13725236516593676381noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17040756.post-86799037662892364002017-05-25T08:53:57.805-04:002017-05-25T08:53:57.805-04:00Interesting to hear this word count debate. Over h...Interesting to hear this word count debate. Over here in picture book land, shorter, shorter, shorter seems to be the mantra. 500 words? Possibly too long. 200 words? Better. Wordless? Fantastic! (if you can illustrate).<br /><br />OP: your gut was telling you all along. #6 is the key. I think I'll take the same advice.<br /><br />Good luck and happy writing! <br /><br /><br />Claire Bobrowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15666082441972111293noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17040756.post-85635143152848214272017-05-25T08:53:04.080-04:002017-05-25T08:53:04.080-04:00My initial draft was between 250k-275k on my WIP. ...My initial draft was between 250k-275k on my WIP. Latest draft is 175k. It's fantasy and I am working with editor to cut this down to 125-150K. I tend to err on the other side of this equation. But then none of my favorite books are under 100k words. Some of my favorites exceed 200k. So I struggle with opposite problem and I have noticed some agents have limits on word count so probably easier to be under than over. OP, you are on more solid ground than I am. Keep writing and good luck. E.M. Goldsmithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18387494005655553037noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17040756.post-35976141457120918472017-05-25T08:48:28.318-04:002017-05-25T08:48:28.318-04:00My word count started at 115k, dropped to <80k,...My word count started at 115k, dropped to <80k, and went back up to 103k. Now the manuscript is undergoing mitosis that will leave cell #1 with--who knows--80k? So I appreciated this post. Maybe I'll even get around to querying one of these days!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09886045611763178062noreply@blogger.com